BELGRADE -- Raško-Prizrenska Eparchy Bishop Artemije has called on Serbia to act without hesitation.
Source: Beta
Close the entire text of the article here
“We must stop this cross-party feuding and form a government of national salvation that could unite the forces ready to defend the country and people using all legitimate means,” said the bishop on his return from the U.S., conveying the conclusions drawn from talks in Washington.
He said that the West believed that “a crippled Serbia would soon face up to a new reality,” and on the basis of the fact “that certain Serbian politicians are claiming that they will never accept the loss of Kosovo at the same time as they’re saying that Serbia must bolster relations with aggressor countries that wish to steal a part of her territory.”
Recounting the conclusions of the meeting in the U.S., Artemije said that Serbia had to send the army and police to Kosovo to prevent attacks on her institutions, her holy sites and people, as they are obliged to do under the Constitution, the UN Charter and Resolution 1244.
To remove the danger of Kosovo independence, Serbia had to deploy observers from all friendly and well-intentioned countries around the province, said the bishop.
“Serbia has to announce that it will purchase state-of-the-art weapons systems from Russia and other allies,” he said, adding that she could also “send an invitation to Russia to send volunteers who would help the Serbian people in the just battle.”
At the same time, Artemije said that he had no doubt that even if the worst came to the worst—“if the KLA hooligans and terrorists” declare independence and are recognized by hostile governments—Serbia would never lose Kosovo.
“We’ve survived many occupations and won. An unjustly imposed solution can never last, only compromise and respect for law and morals can create lasting peace and security… We will win because Kosovo is Serbia,” stressed the bishop.
Father Simon of the Banjska Monastery, who accompanied Artemije to the U.S., said at the same conference that he was certain that Serbia had the capacity and ability to oppose the Kosovo independence project, but that it depended on the readiness of the country’s politicians.
“Poor good” bishop was only pointing that he is ready again for the war, but giving the blood of innocent young Serbian guys for nothing! Kosovo was lost 20 years ago. Officially in 1999. when Serbian military troops retreated.
No Serbian politician nor bishop ever address to Albanian people, learn their language, try to get closer. Human beings are important not “holly lands”! We do not need churches to pray we need democracy to live! Good luck dear Albanian people on your way to democracy!
(Christian, 15 February 2008 15:54)
Clean Cut wrote: "A Serbian orthodox bishop in Europe looking to buy high tech weapons! Others watch in aw!"
Great comment, i agree entirely
and another thing: Why are the Serbs saying that Albanians have links with Al-Qaeda.Albanians do not give a toss about religion, You can accuse Albanians only for one thing; FOR NOT BEING RELIGIOUS wich i think helped in achieving their goal.
As religion only causes wars, and nobody can convince me otherwise.
After Independence the next
albanian agenda will be GLOBAL WARMING.
(gaz, uk, 14 February 2008 19:41)
Can somebody please provide me with a list of those 150 “destroyed” Serbian orthodox Churches?
---…--
Yes I would like to see the list too.
However, I should also note that the Greek journalist Tachis Michas in his book "Unholy Alliance" proves that both the Orthdox Church of Serbia and the Orthodox Church of Greece comprise a clear and present danger to the national security of several states in the region.
(Kreshnik Bejko, 14 February 2008 19:17)
"For a wahabbi Muslim this is very odd to drink rakija, wouldn't you agree with me Rod?."
Understandable yes, odd no!
You should ask Kosovo's top Islamic leader, Mufti Naim Ternava, this question.
Seems clear to me that the fellow enjoys the drink more then he desires to adhere to the practices of the whabbi Muslims.
(Roger7, 14 February 2008 18:35)
"They were burned with good reason and now holy mosques rest in their place. (Arzo, 14 February 2008 03:45)"
Arzo, that is one of the most offensive and scary comments I've seen on this site. I do hope plenty of Western politicians become aware of those sorts of opinions among the Albanian population. I expect the moderate elements of Albanian society here to strongly condemn such irresponsible comments.
Blero, many times the lists of Churches have been posted here, stop trying to rewrite history, its shameful, I will make the same comments towards my fellow Serbs who say such things.
"Show me evidence where orthodox christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! (Rod, 13 February 2008 21:03) "
Rod, I lived in Bosnia for a while and I've personally seen the churches in Bosnia and Krajina that Serbs destroyed, so yes that absolutely did happen and for that I am ashamed. I would add that I saw plenty of Ustashe graffiti covered destroyed Orthodox churches as well.
"I don't know the main reason mosques were destroyed though, is it because they were Muslim, or because they were Albanian? I would like to know what the Serbs in these posts think. I would like to know how strong identification of ethnicity and religion is for Serbs. (shqarthi, 14 February 2008 06:21)"
Shqarthi, destroying Churches seems to be a favorite past time of everyone in the region. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be because we were fighting one another and not because you were Albanian or Muslim. Serbs, unlike others in the region, have never attempted to forcibly convert the other Yugoslavs to their religion.
Yes, Orthodoxy is of course a strong identifier for the Serbian people. Catholic Serbs are called Croatians and Muslims Serbs are called Bosniaks. We're sort of a special magical ethnicity in that we can change our "race" at will merely by converting our religion. I would agree that Albanians have learned to work together in a way that failed for us Yugoslavs. Its too bad really.
(Matthew, 14 February 2008 18:16)
Excellent posts Rod, right on the money! The albanian counter claims to your posts here are absolute nonsense. Let's be real here - the truth is Serbian army & police are the "only" ones that will protect Serbs.
(Ratko, 14 February 2008 16:23)
1.) It is right to say that the KLA Albanian leaders are anti-Serbian, anti-Roma, anti-Gorani, anti-Bosniak, anti-Vlach, and anti everyone else who isn't Albanian. This is especially true since the KLA terrorzied & expelled over 2/3 of the non-albanians from Kosovo.
Also Albanian Leaders in Kosovo are obviously very anti-Orthodox Christians, since the KLA directed the destruction of over 150 churches in the past 8 years.
My comment:
If the KLA leader (the Prime Minister) is so anti Serb and anti orthodox Christians why was he drinking Serbian Rakija, the other day, when he visited a Serbian Family? For a wahabbi Muslim this is very odd to drink rakija, wouldn't you agree with me Rod?. Also can you guys please come up with right number, please.
Rod said:
Also I would like to point out that less than 10% of Albanians in Kosovo are Christians, in contrast to Albania where 30% of Albanians are Christian. Now why is that? Must have something to do with all of the Wahabbi Mosques that the Saudis are paying for Albanians to build.
My comment:
Well you see, you think that the history of Albanians exist since the last 8 years only. Sorry to disappoint you but you are so behind the history that you contradict yourself on every paragraph. According to you, there are more Muslims in Kosova then in Albania because of wahabbi mosques built by Saudis. Wow, that is some numbers, for 8 years only and so many converted Muslims in Kosova? Are you related to Canadian by any chance, because he is very good with numbers as well :)
Rod said:
Remeber, Albanians in Kosovo also built cafes and named them in honor of Al Qaeda & Adolf Hitler, and that seems pretty anti-Christian to me.
My comment:
I didn't know that Hitler was Muslim too?
Rod said:
Show me evidence where orthodox Christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! Obvioulsy you can't, because no such evidence exists!
My comment:
This is a typical claim from a Serb's camp. Your questions/claims are always for specific year, month and event, ignoring much bigger picture and other events where Serbs are the culprit of that or same scenario. Well, history does not starts with Serbia or according to Serbia's Gov. and Churches.
Rod, you want evidence of any mosques burned in Serbia or Bosnia for the last 9 years, right? I wish I could offer you a link of evidence to see what Serbia did in Bosnia and Kosova but, as you were specific, for very well known reasons, you only want to know what happened in certain countries and the last 9 years only.
As for in Russia, its true, Serbia did not burn any mosque in Russia. You won on this one Rod, well done, there is no proof of any mosque being burned in Russia by Serbia. You should've added other countries as well, while you were at it. Like USA, Germany, France and so on, you would've been right, no evidence exists for any Serbian destroying any mosque on any of these countries
Since you are specific on timing and that you don't want us to talk about the fact that Serbia flattened all Bosnia's mosques and some Catholics churches prior to your specific 9 years.Also ignoring the Kosova's heritage destroyed prior to your specific years, a country where Serbia destroyed the most. And since you only want evidence of mosques in Serbia only, well, don't worry, here is a link of those mosques destroyed in 2004 [link] Please read the comment number 10 by my fellow Albanian, Mr. Adrian Gashi, and there he provides you some very interesting links and evidence. And while you are there, please do not ignore the link provided on comment number #16.
Rod, is it ok that I only needed to go back as far as 2004, only 4 years ago? Funny enough, I didn't have to go and search on other websites either, in order to provide you the evidence, that you claim does not exist. I found the link in this very same site, B92, which I am sure you cannot complain since B92 is a Serbian site, not anti Orthodox Christians or anti Serbian.
Rod said:
Seriously for once, try saying something that you can actually prove, instead of spreading such horrible lies everytime you post here.
My comment:
Therefore today I am saying very little and providing you with links from B92 archives only, which I just can't see why it can't be published knowing that these are from b92?
As for who is spreading lies here and how bishop's views are his and not the church's itself then please be my guest and read the following article, again by B92.
[link]
If that doesn't convince you then please read this one, which again is the clearest evidence of what happened in ex-Yugoslavia and who stood behind all these destruction's and why?
And last but not least, in case you change your mind and allow us to talk prior to your specific 8 years only, then please read this story, it is from UNESCO site, and it is for the whole Kosova's heritage. I know you were specific when choosing countries and you only wanted evidence from countries like Serbia and Russia but I hope you don't mind that I am providing you evidence from another country as well, Kosova. [link]
Mike said:
We need to bear a few things in mind here.
First, Bishop Artemije is speaking more for himself than the SPC. Many non-Orthodox tend to think the church speaks as one united body. This could not be further from the truth. Regardless of nationality, Orthodox bishops run the gamut from extremely progressive to extremely conservative. Artemije is understandibly reacting to the fate of his diocese in Kosovo.
(Mike, 13 February 2008 16:06)
I am sure in the last two links you will find my answer to your comment.
(Flamur,UK, 14 February 2008 14:34)
as a fellow Irishman I could not agree with you more. The fact that 'Team Kosova' is quoting Maggie Thatcher in their independence debate is furtehr proof of the moral, social and political bankruptcy of the Team Kosova agenda. Nobody, no one and no organisation has any authority to dismember and destroy the Reprublic of Serbia. In the face of such vitriol and dehumanising attacks, I urge the Serbian nation to hold firm not give up 1 inch. Justice, righteousness and international law will prevail in the end.
(Niall O'Doherty, 14 February 2008 14:04)
I forgot to add this to my last comment (if it is published).
150 Serbian Orthodox churches destroyed!!
I was not aware there were 150 Orthodox Churches to start with in Kosovo.
Can somebody please provide me with a list of those 150 “destroyed” Serbian orthodox Churches?
If not, can somebody please provide me with any list that contains 150 Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo (before or after 1999)?
(blero, 14 February 2008 09:52)
I am not going to discuss you comments.
I will however say this.
Albanian “Muslim Terrorists” did not destroy any catholic churches in Kosovo.
Albanian “Muslim Terrorists” did not destroy any orthodox churches in Albania.
Think about it.
You can believe in whatever you want Rod, it does not actually matter to us.
Not a slightest.
Oh, by the way did I tell you. I am Albanian Catholic. Any Albanian (Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox) is my brother.
(blero, 14 February 2008 09:33)
"A Serbian orthodox bishop in Europe looking to buy high tech weapons! Others watch in aw!"
Personally, I wouldn't know how to react without offending anyone. Laugh would be a normal reaction if you are not a Kosovar Albanian, but then, I recall who I am, and also that this same guy is only repeating himself, and I can't help but feel despair and sorry for all of us, regardless of nationality, who happen to share lives with these hotheads. Anyway, Kosova will be the land of everyone who would like to call this land his/her country, including the missile-loving bishop. Kosova will be a free land, with free people. No one will change that, EVER!
(Clean Cut, 14 February 2008 08:59)
Just to try to make a distinction, churches were not destroyed because they were orthodox, but because they were Serb. If Serbs were scientologists, their buildings would have been destroyed just as well. I don't know the main reason mosques were destroyed though, is it because they were muslim, or because they they were albanian? I would like to know what the Serbs in these posts think. I would like to know how strong identification of ethnicity and religion is for Serbs. For Albanians, they are pretty separate.
The Belgrade mosque was attacked in March 2004, as a consequence of what was happening in Kosovo, right? But what ethnicity used to go there? Not trying to make any point here, just asking out of curiosity.
(shqarthi, 14 February 2008 06:21)
Mufti Naim Ternava is a religious leader. Just like the bishop, he has the right to invite people to believe and to pray and to live their faith. That is his job. "Shehid" is any person who has been killed for being a Muslim. Those who have suffered such a fate include children, grandmothers, old men, teenagers -- people who were killed because of who and what they are, not for anything they did.
Just like a church, a mosque is a house of worship. Building a mosque and praying in it is not an extremist act -- it is a human right, protected by law. Kosovo Albanians have the right to be Muslims (even to be observant Muslims, though most are not), the same as Serbs have the right to be Orthodox Christians. And just as people also have a right not to be religious, if that is their choice.
There's a clear reason why so many mosques in Kosovo were (re)built after 1999. It is because hundreds of mosques were destroyed or damaged by Serbian forces during the 1998-1999 war --
Every decent person (including the Mufti) has condemned the criminal destruction of Serb Orthodox churches after the end of the war in Kosovo. But one crime does not justify another -- the destruction of mosques by Serb forces during the war was also a crime.
After the end of the war, some Kosovo mosques were rebuilt by local communities, some with the assistance of foreign donors: Donations came from many countries, some from the Muslim world (Malaysia, Morocco, Turkey, Saudi Arabia). some from western Europe (Italy, Sweden, Britain, etc.).
Rebuilding a mosque destroyed in war is not an "Islamist plot"; some mosques in Kosovo have been rebuilt with help from Jewish and Christian donors as part of inter-faith initiatives --
The fight over Kosovo is at its root a contest between two ethno-nationalist projects -- Serbian and Albanian. The dispute is about the political control of a territory; it is not a "war of religions". The Middle Ages ended some time after 1389, even in the Balkans.
(Jovan R., 14 February 2008 05:57)
Please stop lying already. The only reason why albanians didn't destroy Serb Churches during the Ottoman days, was because the Ottoman empire had laws protecting Christians and Jews, albeit even though they were mistreated & and by law were considered 2nd class people by the Ottoman government. Furthermore, Serbs still constituted a majority in Kosovo during most of the Ottoman occupation, and they in fact protected their own churches.
On another note, none of the KLA leaders ever appologized for their attrocities against Serbs, neither in 2004, nor any other time over the past 9 years.
Furthermore Miri, the fabricated genocide which you insist was carried out by Milosevic, never happened.
Less than 10,000 people died over the course of a 2 year war in Kosovo, this was on both sides. This is not genocide. Also Albanians did not start leaving Kosovo large numbers until after Nato began bombing (even though war had raged in Kosovo for 2 years prior to that point). Serbian forces did not expell Albanians from Kosovo, Miri. the majority of Albanians fled Kosovo because Nato was bombing, and/or the KLA told them to leave, and not because of anything that the Serbs did. Finally, the reason why Milosevic sent the JNA into Kosovo in the 1st place, was because the KLA was murdering policemen, Orthodox clergy, and civillians,and terrorizing everyone, including Albanians who refused to support the KLA's jihad against Serbs. Miri,if you Albanians want to blame anyone for the troubles that befell you in 1999, then blame yourselves, since you were supporting the very terrorists who started the Kosovo war in the 1st place.
As far as apologies go, Albanians have infinately more things to apologize for in Kosovo, than the Serbs ever will... starting with the genocide that Alabanians committed against Serbs, Romas, & Jews in Kosovo, while serving the Nazi's in WWII (over 50,000 killed, and another 120,000 expelled), and followed by over 60 years of terror committed by Albanians, while pursuing their goal of an ethnically pure "indipindint kosova", aka. "greater Albania". Over 40,000 Serbs fled Albanian terror in Kosovo during the 1980's alone, and we all know that since 1999, over 220,000 Serbs, Roma, and others have been ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by the KLA.
Clearly Albanians respect no one but themselves. This is evident not only in Kosovo, but also in Western Macedonia
as well.
In any event Miri, I have nothing to apologize to you for, as my concience is clear. Nice try though, better luck next time.
(Rod, 14 February 2008 05:40)
i appreciate the fact that b92 is FINally publishing some statements that are critical of the serb orth. CHURCH. the statements of the "good bishop" are so outrageous i thought for one moment it was a parody. i mean, a new weapons system -- and exactly where would you locate central command? i shudder to think. these people can claim to be people of god but it is in no way any conception of god that i can ever accept.
(robertor, 14 February 2008 05:17)
Rod, you werent in Kosovo, you are well aware of the fact of what Serbians did to Albanians in 1999. Please dont lecture us about morality.
Simply put, the churches were a sign of oppression, by Slobodan and his former Serbs.
They were burned with good reason and now holy mosques rest in their place.
Theirs 16000 Nato troops there and nothing you do will change that, especialy some arch bishop that wants what I find the funniest joke ever and here it is 'State of the art Weapon systems' from 'RUSSIA(
(Arzo, 14 February 2008 03:45)
"Fascinating-isn't religion supposed to be about peace."
tonyt
assuming ur statement is correct... (still laughin') who exactly is the religion supposed to be bringing peace to? to all people or only to its followers? Do I need to compare Islam and Christianity, as has been done so many times by so many others?? The differences are vast.
Kosovo je Serbia
Serbs of diaspora are with you!
(DJ MeHighLow, 14 February 2008 02:10)
albi
If the only person you can find to support your position is Maggie Thatcher then you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Thatcher is now an utterly discredited figure and something of a joke in Western Europe.
She is also the person who allowed ten Irishmen to die on hunger strike in her callous determination to hang onto the remnants of the empire.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 13 February 2008 23:34)
Rod, those churches that you make so much a fuss about have been guarded by Albanians themselves for centuries in a clear sign of how Albanians respect and appreciate someone else religion.
The destruction of churches in 2004 were a desperate and punishable act. Every one has regretted this act and K-Albanians have said many times they will make up for it.
Now what else do you want? You and the others seem to stick to those events "forgetting" that it was much remorse created by the events of few years ago by your own forces. You should put things in perspective. We all have said, the 2004 destruction it was a tragic event, why don't you say something about the killing and expulsion of K-Albanians during 1999s?
(miri, 13 February 2008 23:02)
"Rod, since you seem to be well informed on "factual evidence," please enlighten us about the number of mosques, catholic churches, and people that Serbia destroyed.
(Ptoleme, 13 February 2008 19:01)"
Ptoleme,
The evidence that no (or few) Catholic churches and mosques have been destroyed is very simple. If they had been destroyed one can be sure that the Western, Kosovo, Croatian and Bosnian media would have covered it like there is no tomorrow. They would have seized this unique opportunity to further "prove" that the Serbs are not only barbarian, but also religious fanatics. Even after Serbia liberated Kosovo in 1912 they did not destroy all mosques even after 500 years of Ottoman occupation and repression. Even after WWII many German churches in Vojvodina, that belonged to the Volksdeutschen who colaborated heavily with the Nazi's and who were driven out by the Communist, were left untouched. The Serbian Orthodox church will be in Kosovo for a long long time and may God prevent that one day all old churches and monasteries will have to be removed outside of Kosovo to save them and keep them as a memory and inspiration before history will be vanished for ever.
(Zoran, 13 February 2008 22:48)
"1. It's wrong to say the Kosovo leadership is anti-Christian, since many of the Kosovar population is Catholic and there's even a street in Pristina called Mother Theresa; "
(Bad Gorilla, 13 Feb. 2008)
1.) It is right to say that the KLA Albanian leaders are anti-Serbian, anti-Roma, anti-Gorani, anti-Bosniak, anti-Vlach, and anti everyone else who isn't Albanian. This is especially true since the KLA terrorzied & expelled over 2/3 of the non-albanians from Kosovo.
Also Albanian Leaders in Kosovo are obviously very anti-Orthodox Christians, since the KLA directed the destruction of over 150 churches in the past 8 years.
Also I would like to point out that less than 10% of Albanians in Kosovo are Christians, in contrast to Albania where 30% of Albanians are Christian. Now why is that? Must have something to do with all of the Wahabbi Mosques that the Saudis are paying for Albanians to build. Furthermore, Mother Teresa was honored by Albanians in Pristina because she is Albanian, not because she is Christian. Remeber, Albanians in Kosovo also built cafes and named them in honor of Al Qaeda & Adolf Hitler, and that seems pretty anti-Christian to me.
"2. Islam in Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia tends to be less radical than the Orthodoxy in Serbia, Bosnia and Russia."
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008)
You're joking right? It is a proven fact that Albanian Muslim terrorists have destroyed over 150 churches Kosovo, and expelled 2/3 of the christian population from the territory over the past 9 years. Show me evidence where orthodox christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! Obvioulsy you can't, because no such evidence exists!
Seriously for once, try saying something that you can actually prove, instead of spreading such horrible lies everytime you post here.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 21:03)
To Rod and Delije,
in response to "Albanian Muslim Terrorists have destroyed over 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches"
The Serb churches in Kosovo were fine until people like Artemije and other modern Serbs came along and turned them into symbols of Serb oppression.
I will once again repeat the words of Margaret Thatcher: "I am unmoved by Serb pleas to retain their grasp on most of Kosovo because it contains their holy places. Coming from those who systematically levelled Catholic churches and Muslim mosques wherever they went, such an argument is cynical almost to the point of blasphemy."
As for the Saudi Churches, they got plenty of money to waste and I do mind that they are wasting some of it in Kosovo and Albania. Frankly we'd be better without their mosques, but you have to put it all in perspective. Nobody's existence is threatened by an empty building. We all know how Albanians feel about religion and religious extremism, it's basically a nonissue amond Albanians.
(albi, 13 February 2008 19:57)
Rod, since you seem to be well informed on "factual evidence," please enlighten us about the number of mosques, catholic churches, and people that Serbia destroyed.
(Ptoleme, 13 February 2008 19:01)
"Kosovo is one of the most secular societies in Europe."
Are you joking? With 300+ mosques built with Saudi petrol dollars in just a few years, and at the same time over 150 churches destroyed?
(VB, 13 February 2008 18:22)
1. It's wrong to say the Kosovo leadership is anti-Christian, since many of the Kosovar population is Catholic and there's even a street in Pristina called Mother Theresa;
2. Islam in Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia tends to be less radical than the Orthodoxy in Serbia, Bosnia and Russia.
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008 17:34)
In modern civilized societies, the state is separated from the church and the bishops don't ask for coups d'etat or arms purchasuing anymore.
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008 17:30)
In 2007, Kosovo's top Islamic leader, Mufti Naim Ternava, visited the US. During his travels he preached in the Detroit area telling others that “Thousands of miles away from here, there are Muslim brothers in Kosovo who suffered and who are close religious brothers with you." He went on to advocate for the independence of Kosovo and say, "thousands of people…went as shahids(martyrs) during all these sufferings"
Mufti Ternava also urged the crowd to follow the teachings of Islam."Islam is such a comprehensive religion which includes all what the family needs and what an individual needs in this world," he said. "Help others to understand it. Teach it to others."
I would not call the Mufti a terrorist but then, I would not be so crude and primitive as to call him an "old man".
So, as the per the definition, those who perished, or "shahids", were martyred in the cause of Islam?
Seems that the practice of Islam is alive and well in Kosovo.
(Roger7, 13 February 2008 17:24)
TonyT its the Kosovo Albanians that brought the Orthodox leaders into the conflict whan they destroied 155 + churches in the name of independence. Freddy, the KPS, please they have as much credability as a 2 bit theaf. The Bishop does'nt have to answer to them. Arzo, it's Arkon's Tigers, and like the Croatian bishiops blessed their soulders so did ours. I'd bet that the muslim leaders in Kosovo blessed the KLA also. MIRI, maybe someone should show the K-Albanians a recent calender also ( Illyria, Dardania, everything in the world is Albanian....etc.) The Serbs survived Muslim repretion for centuries with the cross in one hand and a sword in the other. There is no difference now. Serbs do not want to be under any muslim rule,we've been there before, no matter how secular the K-albanians say they are. Artan, Rod understands the seriousness of the situation. and he's right.
(Delije, 13 February 2008 17:10)
Artan, my facts are well documented,and your negative comments about me clearly demonstrate your own immaturity.
But just so we're clear, exactly which of the facts stated by me are you denying?
Are you denying he wholesale destruction of Serb villages,churches,monuments, and cultural heritage in Kosovo over the past 9 years? Are you denying that the Albanians ethically cleansed 2/3 of the non albanian population (220,000 people, or 11% of Kosovo's population)? Are you denying that Wahabbi Mosques are being constructed with Saudi Money? Are you denying the KLA links to Al Qaeda, which even the US State department acknowledged before Clinton threw in with them in 1999?
Remember the Albanians from Kosovo who were caught trying to bomb Fort Dix several months ago? All of them acknowleged membership in the KLA, as well as their ties Al Qaeda during questioning. One of the Albanian bombers even referred to Bin Laden affectionately as "UNCLE BENNY". This was reported in American newspapers all over the country.
Also, Albanian Terrorist attacks against Serbs and others both living and dead (even Serb graves aren't safe from Albanian terror)happen almost daily,and are well documented. In fact, there are over 9 years of archives here at B92 alone to validate all of the facts I just mentioned.
So Artan, exactly what are you disputing? Because my facts are indeed quite sound. And just for the record it's spelled "KOSOVO", and no I haven't been there, but my wife worked for UNMIK as an interpretter in Kosovska Mitrovica for 2 years. During here time in UNMIK, my wife visited many of the serb enclaves both north & south of the Ibar river, and she witnessed many of the sort of atrocities that I spoke of 1st hand!
I know that people like you Artan, who post here to spread propoganda & hate, don't want the truth to be told, as this clearly jeporadizes your goal of mono-ethnic, Albanian "indipindint kosava". But guess what, I don't care what you want.
I stand behind my earlier statements, Serbia has every legal and moral right in the world to protect her territory, people, and cultural heritage. I agree with the bishop that only Serbian security forces can insure the safety of Serbs and Non-Albanians living in Kosovo. The past 9 years have proven above all else, that Nato is both unwilling and unable to protect Serbs and others in Kosovo from Albanian terror.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 16:58)
Every word that Rod wrote in his post is nothing but the truth, every. I have been to Kosovo and he is absolutely right about everything he said. There are mane evidences that prove his words.
Excellent post Rod!
(bmrusila, 13 February 2008 16:36)
Is this guy calling for war? Is he going to be fighting in this war?
My view is that his message should be ignored same as the posting of ill informed Rod, who does not know that Albanians are of Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox religion.
Rod says that Serbia should send troops to protect the people, but Rod troops where here till 1999 and left. They left behind population that they were supposed to protect. Now, do you still want those troops?
(Olf, 13 February 2008 16:13)
First, Bishop Artemije is speaking more for himself than the SPC. Many non-Orthodox tend to think the church speaks as one united body. This could not be further from the truth. Regardless of nationality, Orthodox bishops run the gamut from extremely progressive to extremely conservative. Artemije is understandibly reacting to the fate of his diocese in Kosovo.
Second, while most Serbs sympathize with the plight of their fellow Serbs in Kosovo, and the images of burning churches over the last 8 years is a vivid memory, I don't think "state of the art weapons systems" are the way to defend one's propetry. True it's a less than subtle way of getting one's point across, but we're not interested in turning monasteries into missle bases.
Third, I have little doubt that Serbia's Action Plan has the protection of churches, monasteries, and other cultural landmarks as one of its fundamental provisions. Furthermore, once K-Serbs declare their own government in Kosovo, I'm sure administration will extend to these monasteries, and will continue to be under the protection of KFOR for the indefinite future.
Last, I've never been to Visoki Decani, Pec, or Gracanica. I'd love to go, and from what I've read and heard, Decani itself it an oasis of peace and tranquility. I'm not interested in entering the monastery and seeing a missle guidance system sitting in the courtyard.
(Mike, 13 February 2008 16:06)
Where do you get your "factual evidence"?!?
Its mind boglin and even clear that you have never been to Kosova. You should know that it is one of the most secular societies in Europe.
Its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and seems like you're reading too much of Serbianna.com
I have no doubt that Mr. Artemije would be willing to die for Kosova but I wonder; He, as an adult and a mature individual, doesn't care for the lives of its own people that would be uneccessary wasted, were the issue to degenerate into an armed conflict? It doesn't take much to understand, even for a teenager, that whatever Artemije is suggesting is a suicide. My other puzzling question is : Doesn't he care that he actually is loosing credibility among his followers with such irresponsible comments?
Unless it is provided that the serbian church has always made its way with the cross in one hand and the sword in the other. Someone is needed to show Mr. Artemije a recent calendar. Who knows, his calendar might read 1008 instead of actual year.
(miri, 13 February 2008 15:38)
The same church, that blessed Arkons Eagles and gave them the right to cleanse 'hooligans/muslims' in Bosnia and Kosovo.
(Arzo, 13 February 2008 15:27)
To all of the biggoted albanians who post here, consider this before you attack the good bishop:
Over the past 9 years, Albanian Muslim Terrorists have destroyed over 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches, expelled 2/3 of the Christian,Non-Albanian, & Non Muslim population (over 220,000 people), and have erected several hundred Wahabbi Muslim Mosques with Saudi Arabian Money. That Wahabbis are the most violent,radical, & genocidal islamic sect in the world, and their membership among Albanians in Kosovo is growing. Albanians in Kosovo have built cafes in honor of both Al Qaeda, and even Adolf Hitler. The Albanians leader Hashim Taci, headed the KLA, a terrorist organization with know links to Osama Bin Laden.
Considering all of the above facts, clearly that Serbian Christians and other Non-Albanians in Kosovo are facing extinction. This will happen if something isn't done soon to protect these people. Those are the facts, and the bishop's position on this matter is quite understandable. Serbia should send troops to protect her people, her borders, and cultural heritage. Serbia's right to do so is specified and guarrenteed by UN Resolution 1244. Nato, EU,& UNMIK have no legal right to prevent Serbia from protecting what is hers. The good bishop was only pointing that out.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 14:50)
Is this old man advocating war as the last result? I hope KPS takes a good chat with him when he returns back to Kosovo. Funny though, if it was a Imam giving those statements, he would be called a terrorist.
(Freddy, 13 February 2008 14:45)
This will be the orthodox church famously staying clear of politics and promoting a message of peace, tolerance, love and understanding, then.
(stuart, 13 February 2008 13:47)
The curious thing about this is that in other European secular societies the church struggles for public space but her pleas are generally ignored. In Serbia church has a massive public space and yet strives for more political leverage and control. Very interesting.
(village-bey, 13 February 2008 13:45)
Ah the true colors of the religous dogma finally come out. What is a bishop doing talking about arms deals!!? Fascinating-isn't religion supposed to be about peace. It really reveals alot into serbia's illusions about their past and their neighbors.
listen and look closelt at this guy - as I see your future- dark ages baby.
(tonyt, 13 February 2008 13:13)
To all of the biggoted albanians who post here, consider this before you attack the good bishop:
Over the past 9 years, Albanian Muslim Terrorists have destroyed over 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches, expelled 2/3 of the Christian,Non-Albanian, & Non Muslim population (over 220,000 people), and have erected several hundred Wahabbi Muslim Mosques with Saudi Arabian Money. That Wahabbis are the most violent,radical, & genocidal islamic sect in the world, and their membership among Albanians in Kosovo is growing. Albanians in Kosovo have built cafes in honor of both Al Qaeda, and even Adolf Hitler. The Albanians leader Hashim Taci, headed the KLA, a terrorist organization with know links to Osama Bin Laden.
Considering all of the above facts, clearly that Serbian Christians and other Non-Albanians in Kosovo are facing extinction. This will happen if something isn't done soon to protect these people. Those are the facts, and the bishop's position on this matter is quite understandable. Serbia should send troops to protect her people, her borders, and cultural heritage. Serbia's right to do so is specified and guarrenteed by UN Resolution 1244. Nato, EU,& UNMIK have no legal right to prevent Serbia from protecting what is hers. The good bishop was only pointing that out.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 14:50)
Ah the true colors of the religous dogma finally come out. What is a bishop doing talking about arms deals!!? Fascinating-isn't religion supposed to be about peace. It really reveals alot into serbia's illusions about their past and their neighbors.
listen and look closelt at this guy - as I see your future- dark ages baby.
(tonyt, 13 February 2008 13:13)
The curious thing about this is that in other European secular societies the church struggles for public space but her pleas are generally ignored. In Serbia church has a massive public space and yet strives for more political leverage and control. Very interesting.
(village-bey, 13 February 2008 13:45)
Artan, my facts are well documented,and your negative comments about me clearly demonstrate your own immaturity.
But just so we're clear, exactly which of the facts stated by me are you denying?
Are you denying he wholesale destruction of Serb villages,churches,monuments, and cultural heritage in Kosovo over the past 9 years? Are you denying that the Albanians ethically cleansed 2/3 of the non albanian population (220,000 people, or 11% of Kosovo's population)? Are you denying that Wahabbi Mosques are being constructed with Saudi Money? Are you denying the KLA links to Al Qaeda, which even the US State department acknowledged before Clinton threw in with them in 1999?
Remember the Albanians from Kosovo who were caught trying to bomb Fort Dix several months ago? All of them acknowleged membership in the KLA, as well as their ties Al Qaeda during questioning. One of the Albanian bombers even referred to Bin Laden affectionately as "UNCLE BENNY". This was reported in American newspapers all over the country.
Also, Albanian Terrorist attacks against Serbs and others both living and dead (even Serb graves aren't safe from Albanian terror)happen almost daily,and are well documented. In fact, there are over 9 years of archives here at B92 alone to validate all of the facts I just mentioned.
So Artan, exactly what are you disputing? Because my facts are indeed quite sound. And just for the record it's spelled "KOSOVO", and no I haven't been there, but my wife worked for UNMIK as an interpretter in Kosovska Mitrovica for 2 years. During here time in UNMIK, my wife visited many of the serb enclaves both north & south of the Ibar river, and she witnessed many of the sort of atrocities that I spoke of 1st hand!
I know that people like you Artan, who post here to spread propoganda & hate, don't want the truth to be told, as this clearly jeporadizes your goal of mono-ethnic, Albanian "indipindint kosava". But guess what, I don't care what you want.
I stand behind my earlier statements, Serbia has every legal and moral right in the world to protect her territory, people, and cultural heritage. I agree with the bishop that only Serbian security forces can insure the safety of Serbs and Non-Albanians living in Kosovo. The past 9 years have proven above all else, that Nato is both unwilling and unable to protect Serbs and others in Kosovo from Albanian terror.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 16:58)
Every word that Rod wrote in his post is nothing but the truth, every. I have been to Kosovo and he is absolutely right about everything he said. There are mane evidences that prove his words.
Excellent post Rod!
(bmrusila, 13 February 2008 16:36)
Is this old man advocating war as the last result? I hope KPS takes a good chat with him when he returns back to Kosovo. Funny though, if it was a Imam giving those statements, he would be called a terrorist.
(Freddy, 13 February 2008 14:45)
This will be the orthodox church famously staying clear of politics and promoting a message of peace, tolerance, love and understanding, then.
(stuart, 13 February 2008 13:47)
In 2007, Kosovo's top Islamic leader, Mufti Naim Ternava, visited the US. During his travels he preached in the Detroit area telling others that “Thousands of miles away from here, there are Muslim brothers in Kosovo who suffered and who are close religious brothers with you." He went on to advocate for the independence of Kosovo and say, "thousands of people…went as shahids(martyrs) during all these sufferings"
Mufti Ternava also urged the crowd to follow the teachings of Islam."Islam is such a comprehensive religion which includes all what the family needs and what an individual needs in this world," he said. "Help others to understand it. Teach it to others."
I would not call the Mufti a terrorist but then, I would not be so crude and primitive as to call him an "old man".
So, as the per the definition, those who perished, or "shahids", were martyred in the cause of Islam?
Seems that the practice of Islam is alive and well in Kosovo.
(Roger7, 13 February 2008 17:24)
The same church, that blessed Arkons Eagles and gave them the right to cleanse 'hooligans/muslims' in Bosnia and Kosovo.
(Arzo, 13 February 2008 15:27)
TonyT its the Kosovo Albanians that brought the Orthodox leaders into the conflict whan they destroied 155 + churches in the name of independence. Freddy, the KPS, please they have as much credability as a 2 bit theaf. The Bishop does'nt have to answer to them. Arzo, it's Arkon's Tigers, and like the Croatian bishiops blessed their soulders so did ours. I'd bet that the muslim leaders in Kosovo blessed the KLA also. MIRI, maybe someone should show the K-Albanians a recent calender also ( Illyria, Dardania, everything in the world is Albanian....etc.) The Serbs survived Muslim repretion for centuries with the cross in one hand and a sword in the other. There is no difference now. Serbs do not want to be under any muslim rule,we've been there before, no matter how secular the K-albanians say they are. Artan, Rod understands the seriousness of the situation. and he's right.
(Delije, 13 February 2008 17:10)
Where do you get your "factual evidence"?!?
Its mind boglin and even clear that you have never been to Kosova. You should know that it is one of the most secular societies in Europe.
Its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and seems like you're reading too much of Serbianna.com
"1. It's wrong to say the Kosovo leadership is anti-Christian, since many of the Kosovar population is Catholic and there's even a street in Pristina called Mother Theresa; "
(Bad Gorilla, 13 Feb. 2008)
1.) It is right to say that the KLA Albanian leaders are anti-Serbian, anti-Roma, anti-Gorani, anti-Bosniak, anti-Vlach, and anti everyone else who isn't Albanian. This is especially true since the KLA terrorzied & expelled over 2/3 of the non-albanians from Kosovo.
Also Albanian Leaders in Kosovo are obviously very anti-Orthodox Christians, since the KLA directed the destruction of over 150 churches in the past 8 years.
Also I would like to point out that less than 10% of Albanians in Kosovo are Christians, in contrast to Albania where 30% of Albanians are Christian. Now why is that? Must have something to do with all of the Wahabbi Mosques that the Saudis are paying for Albanians to build. Furthermore, Mother Teresa was honored by Albanians in Pristina because she is Albanian, not because she is Christian. Remeber, Albanians in Kosovo also built cafes and named them in honor of Al Qaeda & Adolf Hitler, and that seems pretty anti-Christian to me.
"2. Islam in Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia tends to be less radical than the Orthodoxy in Serbia, Bosnia and Russia."
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008)
You're joking right? It is a proven fact that Albanian Muslim terrorists have destroyed over 150 churches Kosovo, and expelled 2/3 of the christian population from the territory over the past 9 years. Show me evidence where orthodox christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! Obvioulsy you can't, because no such evidence exists!
Seriously for once, try saying something that you can actually prove, instead of spreading such horrible lies everytime you post here.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 21:03)
Mufti Naim Ternava is a religious leader. Just like the bishop, he has the right to invite people to believe and to pray and to live their faith. That is his job. "Shehid" is any person who has been killed for being a Muslim. Those who have suffered such a fate include children, grandmothers, old men, teenagers -- people who were killed because of who and what they are, not for anything they did.
Just like a church, a mosque is a house of worship. Building a mosque and praying in it is not an extremist act -- it is a human right, protected by law. Kosovo Albanians have the right to be Muslims (even to be observant Muslims, though most are not), the same as Serbs have the right to be Orthodox Christians. And just as people also have a right not to be religious, if that is their choice.
There's a clear reason why so many mosques in Kosovo were (re)built after 1999. It is because hundreds of mosques were destroyed or damaged by Serbian forces during the 1998-1999 war --
Every decent person (including the Mufti) has condemned the criminal destruction of Serb Orthodox churches after the end of the war in Kosovo. But one crime does not justify another -- the destruction of mosques by Serb forces during the war was also a crime.
After the end of the war, some Kosovo mosques were rebuilt by local communities, some with the assistance of foreign donors: Donations came from many countries, some from the Muslim world (Malaysia, Morocco, Turkey, Saudi Arabia). some from western Europe (Italy, Sweden, Britain, etc.).
Rebuilding a mosque destroyed in war is not an "Islamist plot"; some mosques in Kosovo have been rebuilt with help from Jewish and Christian donors as part of inter-faith initiatives --
The fight over Kosovo is at its root a contest between two ethno-nationalist projects -- Serbian and Albanian. The dispute is about the political control of a territory; it is not a "war of religions". The Middle Ages ended some time after 1389, even in the Balkans.
(Jovan R., 14 February 2008 05:57)
Please stop lying already. The only reason why albanians didn't destroy Serb Churches during the Ottoman days, was because the Ottoman empire had laws protecting Christians and Jews, albeit even though they were mistreated & and by law were considered 2nd class people by the Ottoman government. Furthermore, Serbs still constituted a majority in Kosovo during most of the Ottoman occupation, and they in fact protected their own churches.
On another note, none of the KLA leaders ever appologized for their attrocities against Serbs, neither in 2004, nor any other time over the past 9 years.
Furthermore Miri, the fabricated genocide which you insist was carried out by Milosevic, never happened.
Less than 10,000 people died over the course of a 2 year war in Kosovo, this was on both sides. This is not genocide. Also Albanians did not start leaving Kosovo large numbers until after Nato began bombing (even though war had raged in Kosovo for 2 years prior to that point). Serbian forces did not expell Albanians from Kosovo, Miri. the majority of Albanians fled Kosovo because Nato was bombing, and/or the KLA told them to leave, and not because of anything that the Serbs did. Finally, the reason why Milosevic sent the JNA into Kosovo in the 1st place, was because the KLA was murdering policemen, Orthodox clergy, and civillians,and terrorizing everyone, including Albanians who refused to support the KLA's jihad against Serbs. Miri,if you Albanians want to blame anyone for the troubles that befell you in 1999, then blame yourselves, since you were supporting the very terrorists who started the Kosovo war in the 1st place.
As far as apologies go, Albanians have infinately more things to apologize for in Kosovo, than the Serbs ever will... starting with the genocide that Alabanians committed against Serbs, Romas, & Jews in Kosovo, while serving the Nazi's in WWII (over 50,000 killed, and another 120,000 expelled), and followed by over 60 years of terror committed by Albanians, while pursuing their goal of an ethnically pure "indipindint kosova", aka. "greater Albania". Over 40,000 Serbs fled Albanian terror in Kosovo during the 1980's alone, and we all know that since 1999, over 220,000 Serbs, Roma, and others have been ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by the KLA.
Clearly Albanians respect no one but themselves. This is evident not only in Kosovo, but also in Western Macedonia
as well.
In any event Miri, I have nothing to apologize to you for, as my concience is clear. Nice try though, better luck next time.
(Rod, 14 February 2008 05:40)
albi
If the only person you can find to support your position is Maggie Thatcher then you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Thatcher is now an utterly discredited figure and something of a joke in Western Europe.
She is also the person who allowed ten Irishmen to die on hunger strike in her callous determination to hang onto the remnants of the empire.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 13 February 2008 23:34)
"Fascinating-isn't religion supposed to be about peace."
tonyt
assuming ur statement is correct... (still laughin') who exactly is the religion supposed to be bringing peace to? to all people or only to its followers? Do I need to compare Islam and Christianity, as has been done so many times by so many others?? The differences are vast.
Kosovo je Serbia
Serbs of diaspora are with you!
(DJ MeHighLow, 14 February 2008 02:10)
as a fellow Irishman I could not agree with you more. The fact that 'Team Kosova' is quoting Maggie Thatcher in their independence debate is furtehr proof of the moral, social and political bankruptcy of the Team Kosova agenda. Nobody, no one and no organisation has any authority to dismember and destroy the Reprublic of Serbia. In the face of such vitriol and dehumanising attacks, I urge the Serbian nation to hold firm not give up 1 inch. Justice, righteousness and international law will prevail in the end.
(Niall O'Doherty, 14 February 2008 14:04)
First, Bishop Artemije is speaking more for himself than the SPC. Many non-Orthodox tend to think the church speaks as one united body. This could not be further from the truth. Regardless of nationality, Orthodox bishops run the gamut from extremely progressive to extremely conservative. Artemije is understandibly reacting to the fate of his diocese in Kosovo.
Second, while most Serbs sympathize with the plight of their fellow Serbs in Kosovo, and the images of burning churches over the last 8 years is a vivid memory, I don't think "state of the art weapons systems" are the way to defend one's propetry. True it's a less than subtle way of getting one's point across, but we're not interested in turning monasteries into missle bases.
Third, I have little doubt that Serbia's Action Plan has the protection of churches, monasteries, and other cultural landmarks as one of its fundamental provisions. Furthermore, once K-Serbs declare their own government in Kosovo, I'm sure administration will extend to these monasteries, and will continue to be under the protection of KFOR for the indefinite future.
Last, I've never been to Visoki Decani, Pec, or Gracanica. I'd love to go, and from what I've read and heard, Decani itself it an oasis of peace and tranquility. I'm not interested in entering the monastery and seeing a missle guidance system sitting in the courtyard.
(Mike, 13 February 2008 16:06)
I have no doubt that Mr. Artemije would be willing to die for Kosova but I wonder; He, as an adult and a mature individual, doesn't care for the lives of its own people that would be uneccessary wasted, were the issue to degenerate into an armed conflict? It doesn't take much to understand, even for a teenager, that whatever Artemije is suggesting is a suicide. My other puzzling question is : Doesn't he care that he actually is loosing credibility among his followers with such irresponsible comments?
Unless it is provided that the serbian church has always made its way with the cross in one hand and the sword in the other. Someone is needed to show Mr. Artemije a recent calendar. Who knows, his calendar might read 1008 instead of actual year.
(miri, 13 February 2008 15:38)
Excellent posts Rod, right on the money! The albanian counter claims to your posts here are absolute nonsense. Let's be real here - the truth is Serbian army & police are the "only" ones that will protect Serbs.
(Ratko, 14 February 2008 16:23)
To Rod and Delije,
in response to "Albanian Muslim Terrorists have destroyed over 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches"
The Serb churches in Kosovo were fine until people like Artemije and other modern Serbs came along and turned them into symbols of Serb oppression.
I will once again repeat the words of Margaret Thatcher: "I am unmoved by Serb pleas to retain their grasp on most of Kosovo because it contains their holy places. Coming from those who systematically levelled Catholic churches and Muslim mosques wherever they went, such an argument is cynical almost to the point of blasphemy."
As for the Saudi Churches, they got plenty of money to waste and I do mind that they are wasting some of it in Kosovo and Albania. Frankly we'd be better without their mosques, but you have to put it all in perspective. Nobody's existence is threatened by an empty building. We all know how Albanians feel about religion and religious extremism, it's basically a nonissue amond Albanians.
(albi, 13 February 2008 19:57)
"Rod, since you seem to be well informed on "factual evidence," please enlighten us about the number of mosques, catholic churches, and people that Serbia destroyed.
(Ptoleme, 13 February 2008 19:01)"
Ptoleme,
The evidence that no (or few) Catholic churches and mosques have been destroyed is very simple. If they had been destroyed one can be sure that the Western, Kosovo, Croatian and Bosnian media would have covered it like there is no tomorrow. They would have seized this unique opportunity to further "prove" that the Serbs are not only barbarian, but also religious fanatics. Even after Serbia liberated Kosovo in 1912 they did not destroy all mosques even after 500 years of Ottoman occupation and repression. Even after WWII many German churches in Vojvodina, that belonged to the Volksdeutschen who colaborated heavily with the Nazi's and who were driven out by the Communist, were left untouched. The Serbian Orthodox church will be in Kosovo for a long long time and may God prevent that one day all old churches and monasteries will have to be removed outside of Kosovo to save them and keep them as a memory and inspiration before history will be vanished for ever.
(Zoran, 13 February 2008 22:48)
Can somebody please provide me with a list of those 150 “destroyed” Serbian orthodox Churches?
---…--
Yes I would like to see the list too.
However, I should also note that the Greek journalist Tachis Michas in his book "Unholy Alliance" proves that both the Orthdox Church of Serbia and the Orthodox Church of Greece comprise a clear and present danger to the national security of several states in the region.
(Kreshnik Bejko, 14 February 2008 19:17)
In modern civilized societies, the state is separated from the church and the bishops don't ask for coups d'etat or arms purchasuing anymore.
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008 17:30)
1. It's wrong to say the Kosovo leadership is anti-Christian, since many of the Kosovar population is Catholic and there's even a street in Pristina called Mother Theresa;
2. Islam in Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia tends to be less radical than the Orthodoxy in Serbia, Bosnia and Russia.
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008 17:34)
Rod, those churches that you make so much a fuss about have been guarded by Albanians themselves for centuries in a clear sign of how Albanians respect and appreciate someone else religion.
The destruction of churches in 2004 were a desperate and punishable act. Every one has regretted this act and K-Albanians have said many times they will make up for it.
Now what else do you want? You and the others seem to stick to those events "forgetting" that it was much remorse created by the events of few years ago by your own forces. You should put things in perspective. We all have said, the 2004 destruction it was a tragic event, why don't you say something about the killing and expulsion of K-Albanians during 1999s?
(miri, 13 February 2008 23:02)
"Kosovo is one of the most secular societies in Europe."
Are you joking? With 300+ mosques built with Saudi petrol dollars in just a few years, and at the same time over 150 churches destroyed?
(VB, 13 February 2008 18:22)
1.) It is right to say that the KLA Albanian leaders are anti-Serbian, anti-Roma, anti-Gorani, anti-Bosniak, anti-Vlach, and anti everyone else who isn't Albanian. This is especially true since the KLA terrorzied & expelled over 2/3 of the non-albanians from Kosovo.
Also Albanian Leaders in Kosovo are obviously very anti-Orthodox Christians, since the KLA directed the destruction of over 150 churches in the past 8 years.
My comment:
If the KLA leader (the Prime Minister) is so anti Serb and anti orthodox Christians why was he drinking Serbian Rakija, the other day, when he visited a Serbian Family? For a wahabbi Muslim this is very odd to drink rakija, wouldn't you agree with me Rod?. Also can you guys please come up with right number, please.
Rod said:
Also I would like to point out that less than 10% of Albanians in Kosovo are Christians, in contrast to Albania where 30% of Albanians are Christian. Now why is that? Must have something to do with all of the Wahabbi Mosques that the Saudis are paying for Albanians to build.
My comment:
Well you see, you think that the history of Albanians exist since the last 8 years only. Sorry to disappoint you but you are so behind the history that you contradict yourself on every paragraph. According to you, there are more Muslims in Kosova then in Albania because of wahabbi mosques built by Saudis. Wow, that is some numbers, for 8 years only and so many converted Muslims in Kosova? Are you related to Canadian by any chance, because he is very good with numbers as well :)
Rod said:
Remeber, Albanians in Kosovo also built cafes and named them in honor of Al Qaeda & Adolf Hitler, and that seems pretty anti-Christian to me.
My comment:
I didn't know that Hitler was Muslim too?
Rod said:
Show me evidence where orthodox Christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! Obvioulsy you can't, because no such evidence exists!
My comment:
This is a typical claim from a Serb's camp. Your questions/claims are always for specific year, month and event, ignoring much bigger picture and other events where Serbs are the culprit of that or same scenario. Well, history does not starts with Serbia or according to Serbia's Gov. and Churches.
Rod, you want evidence of any mosques burned in Serbia or Bosnia for the last 9 years, right? I wish I could offer you a link of evidence to see what Serbia did in Bosnia and Kosova but, as you were specific, for very well known reasons, you only want to know what happened in certain countries and the last 9 years only.
As for in Russia, its true, Serbia did not burn any mosque in Russia. You won on this one Rod, well done, there is no proof of any mosque being burned in Russia by Serbia. You should've added other countries as well, while you were at it. Like USA, Germany, France and so on, you would've been right, no evidence exists for any Serbian destroying any mosque on any of these countries
Since you are specific on timing and that you don't want us to talk about the fact that Serbia flattened all Bosnia's mosques and some Catholics churches prior to your specific 9 years.Also ignoring the Kosova's heritage destroyed prior to your specific years, a country where Serbia destroyed the most. And since you only want evidence of mosques in Serbia only, well, don't worry, here is a link of those mosques destroyed in 2004 [link] Please read the comment number 10 by my fellow Albanian, Mr. Adrian Gashi, and there he provides you some very interesting links and evidence. And while you are there, please do not ignore the link provided on comment number #16.
Rod, is it ok that I only needed to go back as far as 2004, only 4 years ago? Funny enough, I didn't have to go and search on other websites either, in order to provide you the evidence, that you claim does not exist. I found the link in this very same site, B92, which I am sure you cannot complain since B92 is a Serbian site, not anti Orthodox Christians or anti Serbian.
Rod said:
Seriously for once, try saying something that you can actually prove, instead of spreading such horrible lies everytime you post here.
My comment:
Therefore today I am saying very little and providing you with links from B92 archives only, which I just can't see why it can't be published knowing that these are from b92?
As for who is spreading lies here and how bishop's views are his and not the church's itself then please be my guest and read the following article, again by B92.
[link]
If that doesn't convince you then please read this one, which again is the clearest evidence of what happened in ex-Yugoslavia and who stood behind all these destruction's and why?
And last but not least, in case you change your mind and allow us to talk prior to your specific 8 years only, then please read this story, it is from UNESCO site, and it is for the whole Kosova's heritage. I know you were specific when choosing countries and you only wanted evidence from countries like Serbia and Russia but I hope you don't mind that I am providing you evidence from another country as well, Kosova. [link]
Mike said:
We need to bear a few things in mind here.
First, Bishop Artemije is speaking more for himself than the SPC. Many non-Orthodox tend to think the church speaks as one united body. This could not be further from the truth. Regardless of nationality, Orthodox bishops run the gamut from extremely progressive to extremely conservative. Artemije is understandibly reacting to the fate of his diocese in Kosovo.
(Mike, 13 February 2008 16:06)
I am sure in the last two links you will find my answer to your comment.
(Flamur,UK, 14 February 2008 14:34)
Rod, since you seem to be well informed on "factual evidence," please enlighten us about the number of mosques, catholic churches, and people that Serbia destroyed.
(Ptoleme, 13 February 2008 19:01)
"A Serbian orthodox bishop in Europe looking to buy high tech weapons! Others watch in aw!"
Personally, I wouldn't know how to react without offending anyone. Laugh would be a normal reaction if you are not a Kosovar Albanian, but then, I recall who I am, and also that this same guy is only repeating himself, and I can't help but feel despair and sorry for all of us, regardless of nationality, who happen to share lives with these hotheads. Anyway, Kosova will be the land of everyone who would like to call this land his/her country, including the missile-loving bishop. Kosova will be a free land, with free people. No one will change that, EVER!
(Clean Cut, 14 February 2008 08:59)
I am not going to discuss you comments.
I will however say this.
Albanian “Muslim Terrorists” did not destroy any catholic churches in Kosovo.
Albanian “Muslim Terrorists” did not destroy any orthodox churches in Albania.
Think about it.
You can believe in whatever you want Rod, it does not actually matter to us.
Not a slightest.
Oh, by the way did I tell you. I am Albanian Catholic. Any Albanian (Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox) is my brother.
(blero, 14 February 2008 09:33)
Just to try to make a distinction, churches were not destroyed because they were orthodox, but because they were Serb. If Serbs were scientologists, their buildings would have been destroyed just as well. I don't know the main reason mosques were destroyed though, is it because they were muslim, or because they they were albanian? I would like to know what the Serbs in these posts think. I would like to know how strong identification of ethnicity and religion is for Serbs. For Albanians, they are pretty separate.
The Belgrade mosque was attacked in March 2004, as a consequence of what was happening in Kosovo, right? But what ethnicity used to go there? Not trying to make any point here, just asking out of curiosity.
(shqarthi, 14 February 2008 06:21)
“Poor good” bishop was only pointing that he is ready again for the war, but giving the blood of innocent young Serbian guys for nothing! Kosovo was lost 20 years ago. Officially in 1999. when Serbian military troops retreated.
No Serbian politician nor bishop ever address to Albanian people, learn their language, try to get closer. Human beings are important not “holly lands”! We do not need churches to pray we need democracy to live! Good luck dear Albanian people on your way to democracy!
(Christian, 15 February 2008 15:54)
Is this guy calling for war? Is he going to be fighting in this war?
My view is that his message should be ignored same as the posting of ill informed Rod, who does not know that Albanians are of Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox religion.
Rod says that Serbia should send troops to protect the people, but Rod troops where here till 1999 and left. They left behind population that they were supposed to protect. Now, do you still want those troops?
(Olf, 13 February 2008 16:13)
"For a wahabbi Muslim this is very odd to drink rakija, wouldn't you agree with me Rod?."
Understandable yes, odd no!
You should ask Kosovo's top Islamic leader, Mufti Naim Ternava, this question.
Seems clear to me that the fellow enjoys the drink more then he desires to adhere to the practices of the whabbi Muslims.
(Roger7, 14 February 2008 18:35)
Clean Cut wrote: "A Serbian orthodox bishop in Europe looking to buy high tech weapons! Others watch in aw!"
Great comment, i agree entirely
and another thing: Why are the Serbs saying that Albanians have links with Al-Qaeda.Albanians do not give a toss about religion, You can accuse Albanians only for one thing; FOR NOT BEING RELIGIOUS wich i think helped in achieving their goal.
As religion only causes wars, and nobody can convince me otherwise.
After Independence the next
albanian agenda will be GLOBAL WARMING.
(gaz, uk, 14 February 2008 19:41)
"They were burned with good reason and now holy mosques rest in their place. (Arzo, 14 February 2008 03:45)"
Arzo, that is one of the most offensive and scary comments I've seen on this site. I do hope plenty of Western politicians become aware of those sorts of opinions among the Albanian population. I expect the moderate elements of Albanian society here to strongly condemn such irresponsible comments.
Blero, many times the lists of Churches have been posted here, stop trying to rewrite history, its shameful, I will make the same comments towards my fellow Serbs who say such things.
"Show me evidence where orthodox christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! (Rod, 13 February 2008 21:03) "
Rod, I lived in Bosnia for a while and I've personally seen the churches in Bosnia and Krajina that Serbs destroyed, so yes that absolutely did happen and for that I am ashamed. I would add that I saw plenty of Ustashe graffiti covered destroyed Orthodox churches as well.
"I don't know the main reason mosques were destroyed though, is it because they were Muslim, or because they were Albanian? I would like to know what the Serbs in these posts think. I would like to know how strong identification of ethnicity and religion is for Serbs. (shqarthi, 14 February 2008 06:21)"
Shqarthi, destroying Churches seems to be a favorite past time of everyone in the region. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be because we were fighting one another and not because you were Albanian or Muslim. Serbs, unlike others in the region, have never attempted to forcibly convert the other Yugoslavs to their religion.
Yes, Orthodoxy is of course a strong identifier for the Serbian people. Catholic Serbs are called Croatians and Muslims Serbs are called Bosniaks. We're sort of a special magical ethnicity in that we can change our "race" at will merely by converting our religion. I would agree that Albanians have learned to work together in a way that failed for us Yugoslavs. Its too bad really.
(Matthew, 14 February 2008 18:16)
I forgot to add this to my last comment (if it is published).
150 Serbian Orthodox churches destroyed!!
I was not aware there were 150 Orthodox Churches to start with in Kosovo.
Can somebody please provide me with a list of those 150 “destroyed” Serbian orthodox Churches?
If not, can somebody please provide me with any list that contains 150 Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo (before or after 1999)?
(blero, 14 February 2008 09:52)
Rod, you werent in Kosovo, you are well aware of the fact of what Serbians did to Albanians in 1999. Please dont lecture us about morality.
Simply put, the churches were a sign of oppression, by Slobodan and his former Serbs.
They were burned with good reason and now holy mosques rest in their place.
Theirs 16000 Nato troops there and nothing you do will change that, especialy some arch bishop that wants what I find the funniest joke ever and here it is 'State of the art Weapon systems' from 'RUSSIA(
(Arzo, 14 February 2008 03:45)
i appreciate the fact that b92 is FINally publishing some statements that are critical of the serb orth. CHURCH. the statements of the "good bishop" are so outrageous i thought for one moment it was a parody. i mean, a new weapons system -- and exactly where would you locate central command? i shudder to think. these people can claim to be people of god but it is in no way any conception of god that i can ever accept.
(robertor, 14 February 2008 05:17)
This will be the orthodox church famously staying clear of politics and promoting a message of peace, tolerance, love and understanding, then.
(stuart, 13 February 2008 13:47)
The curious thing about this is that in other European secular societies the church struggles for public space but her pleas are generally ignored. In Serbia church has a massive public space and yet strives for more political leverage and control. Very interesting.
(village-bey, 13 February 2008 13:45)
Ah the true colors of the religous dogma finally come out. What is a bishop doing talking about arms deals!!? Fascinating-isn't religion supposed to be about peace. It really reveals alot into serbia's illusions about their past and their neighbors.
listen and look closelt at this guy - as I see your future- dark ages baby.
(tonyt, 13 February 2008 13:13)
To all of the biggoted albanians who post here, consider this before you attack the good bishop:
Over the past 9 years, Albanian Muslim Terrorists have destroyed over 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches, expelled 2/3 of the Christian,Non-Albanian, & Non Muslim population (over 220,000 people), and have erected several hundred Wahabbi Muslim Mosques with Saudi Arabian Money. That Wahabbis are the most violent,radical, & genocidal islamic sect in the world, and their membership among Albanians in Kosovo is growing. Albanians in Kosovo have built cafes in honor of both Al Qaeda, and even Adolf Hitler. The Albanians leader Hashim Taci, headed the KLA, a terrorist organization with know links to Osama Bin Laden.
Considering all of the above facts, clearly that Serbian Christians and other Non-Albanians in Kosovo are facing extinction. This will happen if something isn't done soon to protect these people. Those are the facts, and the bishop's position on this matter is quite understandable. Serbia should send troops to protect her people, her borders, and cultural heritage. Serbia's right to do so is specified and guarrenteed by UN Resolution 1244. Nato, EU,& UNMIK have no legal right to prevent Serbia from protecting what is hers. The good bishop was only pointing that out.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 14:50)
I have no doubt that Mr. Artemije would be willing to die for Kosova but I wonder; He, as an adult and a mature individual, doesn't care for the lives of its own people that would be uneccessary wasted, were the issue to degenerate into an armed conflict? It doesn't take much to understand, even for a teenager, that whatever Artemije is suggesting is a suicide. My other puzzling question is : Doesn't he care that he actually is loosing credibility among his followers with such irresponsible comments?
Unless it is provided that the serbian church has always made its way with the cross in one hand and the sword in the other. Someone is needed to show Mr. Artemije a recent calendar. Who knows, his calendar might read 1008 instead of actual year.
(miri, 13 February 2008 15:38)
Where do you get your "factual evidence"?!?
Its mind boglin and even clear that you have never been to Kosova. You should know that it is one of the most secular societies in Europe.
Its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about and seems like you're reading too much of Serbianna.com
Rod, you werent in Kosovo, you are well aware of the fact of what Serbians did to Albanians in 1999. Please dont lecture us about morality.
Simply put, the churches were a sign of oppression, by Slobodan and his former Serbs.
They were burned with good reason and now holy mosques rest in their place.
Theirs 16000 Nato troops there and nothing you do will change that, especialy some arch bishop that wants what I find the funniest joke ever and here it is 'State of the art Weapon systems' from 'RUSSIA(
(Arzo, 14 February 2008 03:45)
The same church, that blessed Arkons Eagles and gave them the right to cleanse 'hooligans/muslims' in Bosnia and Kosovo.
(Arzo, 13 February 2008 15:27)
i appreciate the fact that b92 is FINally publishing some statements that are critical of the serb orth. CHURCH. the statements of the "good bishop" are so outrageous i thought for one moment it was a parody. i mean, a new weapons system -- and exactly where would you locate central command? i shudder to think. these people can claim to be people of god but it is in no way any conception of god that i can ever accept.
(robertor, 14 February 2008 05:17)
1. It's wrong to say the Kosovo leadership is anti-Christian, since many of the Kosovar population is Catholic and there's even a street in Pristina called Mother Theresa;
2. Islam in Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia tends to be less radical than the Orthodoxy in Serbia, Bosnia and Russia.
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008 17:34)
To Rod and Delije,
in response to "Albanian Muslim Terrorists have destroyed over 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches"
The Serb churches in Kosovo were fine until people like Artemije and other modern Serbs came along and turned them into symbols of Serb oppression.
I will once again repeat the words of Margaret Thatcher: "I am unmoved by Serb pleas to retain their grasp on most of Kosovo because it contains their holy places. Coming from those who systematically levelled Catholic churches and Muslim mosques wherever they went, such an argument is cynical almost to the point of blasphemy."
As for the Saudi Churches, they got plenty of money to waste and I do mind that they are wasting some of it in Kosovo and Albania. Frankly we'd be better without their mosques, but you have to put it all in perspective. Nobody's existence is threatened by an empty building. We all know how Albanians feel about religion and religious extremism, it's basically a nonissue amond Albanians.
(albi, 13 February 2008 19:57)
In modern civilized societies, the state is separated from the church and the bishops don't ask for coups d'etat or arms purchasuing anymore.
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008 17:30)
Is this guy calling for war? Is he going to be fighting in this war?
My view is that his message should be ignored same as the posting of ill informed Rod, who does not know that Albanians are of Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox religion.
Rod says that Serbia should send troops to protect the people, but Rod troops where here till 1999 and left. They left behind population that they were supposed to protect. Now, do you still want those troops?
(Olf, 13 February 2008 16:13)
Is this old man advocating war as the last result? I hope KPS takes a good chat with him when he returns back to Kosovo. Funny though, if it was a Imam giving those statements, he would be called a terrorist.
(Freddy, 13 February 2008 14:45)
Mufti Naim Ternava is a religious leader. Just like the bishop, he has the right to invite people to believe and to pray and to live their faith. That is his job. "Shehid" is any person who has been killed for being a Muslim. Those who have suffered such a fate include children, grandmothers, old men, teenagers -- people who were killed because of who and what they are, not for anything they did.
Just like a church, a mosque is a house of worship. Building a mosque and praying in it is not an extremist act -- it is a human right, protected by law. Kosovo Albanians have the right to be Muslims (even to be observant Muslims, though most are not), the same as Serbs have the right to be Orthodox Christians. And just as people also have a right not to be religious, if that is their choice.
There's a clear reason why so many mosques in Kosovo were (re)built after 1999. It is because hundreds of mosques were destroyed or damaged by Serbian forces during the 1998-1999 war --
Every decent person (including the Mufti) has condemned the criminal destruction of Serb Orthodox churches after the end of the war in Kosovo. But one crime does not justify another -- the destruction of mosques by Serb forces during the war was also a crime.
After the end of the war, some Kosovo mosques were rebuilt by local communities, some with the assistance of foreign donors: Donations came from many countries, some from the Muslim world (Malaysia, Morocco, Turkey, Saudi Arabia). some from western Europe (Italy, Sweden, Britain, etc.).
Rebuilding a mosque destroyed in war is not an "Islamist plot"; some mosques in Kosovo have been rebuilt with help from Jewish and Christian donors as part of inter-faith initiatives --
The fight over Kosovo is at its root a contest between two ethno-nationalist projects -- Serbian and Albanian. The dispute is about the political control of a territory; it is not a "war of religions". The Middle Ages ended some time after 1389, even in the Balkans.
(Jovan R., 14 February 2008 05:57)
Rod, since you seem to be well informed on "factual evidence," please enlighten us about the number of mosques, catholic churches, and people that Serbia destroyed.
(Ptoleme, 13 February 2008 19:01)
Rod, those churches that you make so much a fuss about have been guarded by Albanians themselves for centuries in a clear sign of how Albanians respect and appreciate someone else religion.
The destruction of churches in 2004 were a desperate and punishable act. Every one has regretted this act and K-Albanians have said many times they will make up for it.
Now what else do you want? You and the others seem to stick to those events "forgetting" that it was much remorse created by the events of few years ago by your own forces. You should put things in perspective. We all have said, the 2004 destruction it was a tragic event, why don't you say something about the killing and expulsion of K-Albanians during 1999s?
(miri, 13 February 2008 23:02)
1.) It is right to say that the KLA Albanian leaders are anti-Serbian, anti-Roma, anti-Gorani, anti-Bosniak, anti-Vlach, and anti everyone else who isn't Albanian. This is especially true since the KLA terrorzied & expelled over 2/3 of the non-albanians from Kosovo.
Also Albanian Leaders in Kosovo are obviously very anti-Orthodox Christians, since the KLA directed the destruction of over 150 churches in the past 8 years.
My comment:
If the KLA leader (the Prime Minister) is so anti Serb and anti orthodox Christians why was he drinking Serbian Rakija, the other day, when he visited a Serbian Family? For a wahabbi Muslim this is very odd to drink rakija, wouldn't you agree with me Rod?. Also can you guys please come up with right number, please.
Rod said:
Also I would like to point out that less than 10% of Albanians in Kosovo are Christians, in contrast to Albania where 30% of Albanians are Christian. Now why is that? Must have something to do with all of the Wahabbi Mosques that the Saudis are paying for Albanians to build.
My comment:
Well you see, you think that the history of Albanians exist since the last 8 years only. Sorry to disappoint you but you are so behind the history that you contradict yourself on every paragraph. According to you, there are more Muslims in Kosova then in Albania because of wahabbi mosques built by Saudis. Wow, that is some numbers, for 8 years only and so many converted Muslims in Kosova? Are you related to Canadian by any chance, because he is very good with numbers as well :)
Rod said:
Remeber, Albanians in Kosovo also built cafes and named them in honor of Al Qaeda & Adolf Hitler, and that seems pretty anti-Christian to me.
My comment:
I didn't know that Hitler was Muslim too?
Rod said:
Show me evidence where orthodox Christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! Obvioulsy you can't, because no such evidence exists!
My comment:
This is a typical claim from a Serb's camp. Your questions/claims are always for specific year, month and event, ignoring much bigger picture and other events where Serbs are the culprit of that or same scenario. Well, history does not starts with Serbia or according to Serbia's Gov. and Churches.
Rod, you want evidence of any mosques burned in Serbia or Bosnia for the last 9 years, right? I wish I could offer you a link of evidence to see what Serbia did in Bosnia and Kosova but, as you were specific, for very well known reasons, you only want to know what happened in certain countries and the last 9 years only.
As for in Russia, its true, Serbia did not burn any mosque in Russia. You won on this one Rod, well done, there is no proof of any mosque being burned in Russia by Serbia. You should've added other countries as well, while you were at it. Like USA, Germany, France and so on, you would've been right, no evidence exists for any Serbian destroying any mosque on any of these countries
Since you are specific on timing and that you don't want us to talk about the fact that Serbia flattened all Bosnia's mosques and some Catholics churches prior to your specific 9 years.Also ignoring the Kosova's heritage destroyed prior to your specific years, a country where Serbia destroyed the most. And since you only want evidence of mosques in Serbia only, well, don't worry, here is a link of those mosques destroyed in 2004 [link] Please read the comment number 10 by my fellow Albanian, Mr. Adrian Gashi, and there he provides you some very interesting links and evidence. And while you are there, please do not ignore the link provided on comment number #16.
Rod, is it ok that I only needed to go back as far as 2004, only 4 years ago? Funny enough, I didn't have to go and search on other websites either, in order to provide you the evidence, that you claim does not exist. I found the link in this very same site, B92, which I am sure you cannot complain since B92 is a Serbian site, not anti Orthodox Christians or anti Serbian.
Rod said:
Seriously for once, try saying something that you can actually prove, instead of spreading such horrible lies everytime you post here.
My comment:
Therefore today I am saying very little and providing you with links from B92 archives only, which I just can't see why it can't be published knowing that these are from b92?
As for who is spreading lies here and how bishop's views are his and not the church's itself then please be my guest and read the following article, again by B92.
[link]
If that doesn't convince you then please read this one, which again is the clearest evidence of what happened in ex-Yugoslavia and who stood behind all these destruction's and why?
And last but not least, in case you change your mind and allow us to talk prior to your specific 8 years only, then please read this story, it is from UNESCO site, and it is for the whole Kosova's heritage. I know you were specific when choosing countries and you only wanted evidence from countries like Serbia and Russia but I hope you don't mind that I am providing you evidence from another country as well, Kosova. [link]
Mike said:
We need to bear a few things in mind here.
First, Bishop Artemije is speaking more for himself than the SPC. Many non-Orthodox tend to think the church speaks as one united body. This could not be further from the truth. Regardless of nationality, Orthodox bishops run the gamut from extremely progressive to extremely conservative. Artemije is understandibly reacting to the fate of his diocese in Kosovo.
(Mike, 13 February 2008 16:06)
I am sure in the last two links you will find my answer to your comment.
(Flamur,UK, 14 February 2008 14:34)
Clean Cut wrote: "A Serbian orthodox bishop in Europe looking to buy high tech weapons! Others watch in aw!"
Great comment, i agree entirely
and another thing: Why are the Serbs saying that Albanians have links with Al-Qaeda.Albanians do not give a toss about religion, You can accuse Albanians only for one thing; FOR NOT BEING RELIGIOUS wich i think helped in achieving their goal.
As religion only causes wars, and nobody can convince me otherwise.
After Independence the next
albanian agenda will be GLOBAL WARMING.
(gaz, uk, 14 February 2008 19:41)
I am not going to discuss you comments.
I will however say this.
Albanian “Muslim Terrorists” did not destroy any catholic churches in Kosovo.
Albanian “Muslim Terrorists” did not destroy any orthodox churches in Albania.
Think about it.
You can believe in whatever you want Rod, it does not actually matter to us.
Not a slightest.
Oh, by the way did I tell you. I am Albanian Catholic. Any Albanian (Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox) is my brother.
(blero, 14 February 2008 09:33)
"A Serbian orthodox bishop in Europe looking to buy high tech weapons! Others watch in aw!"
Personally, I wouldn't know how to react without offending anyone. Laugh would be a normal reaction if you are not a Kosovar Albanian, but then, I recall who I am, and also that this same guy is only repeating himself, and I can't help but feel despair and sorry for all of us, regardless of nationality, who happen to share lives with these hotheads. Anyway, Kosova will be the land of everyone who would like to call this land his/her country, including the missile-loving bishop. Kosova will be a free land, with free people. No one will change that, EVER!
(Clean Cut, 14 February 2008 08:59)
I forgot to add this to my last comment (if it is published).
150 Serbian Orthodox churches destroyed!!
I was not aware there were 150 Orthodox Churches to start with in Kosovo.
Can somebody please provide me with a list of those 150 “destroyed” Serbian orthodox Churches?
If not, can somebody please provide me with any list that contains 150 Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo (before or after 1999)?
(blero, 14 February 2008 09:52)
Just to try to make a distinction, churches were not destroyed because they were orthodox, but because they were Serb. If Serbs were scientologists, their buildings would have been destroyed just as well. I don't know the main reason mosques were destroyed though, is it because they were muslim, or because they they were albanian? I would like to know what the Serbs in these posts think. I would like to know how strong identification of ethnicity and religion is for Serbs. For Albanians, they are pretty separate.
The Belgrade mosque was attacked in March 2004, as a consequence of what was happening in Kosovo, right? But what ethnicity used to go there? Not trying to make any point here, just asking out of curiosity.
(shqarthi, 14 February 2008 06:21)
Can somebody please provide me with a list of those 150 “destroyed” Serbian orthodox Churches?
---…--
Yes I would like to see the list too.
However, I should also note that the Greek journalist Tachis Michas in his book "Unholy Alliance" proves that both the Orthdox Church of Serbia and the Orthodox Church of Greece comprise a clear and present danger to the national security of several states in the region.
(Kreshnik Bejko, 14 February 2008 19:17)
"Kosovo is one of the most secular societies in Europe."
Are you joking? With 300+ mosques built with Saudi petrol dollars in just a few years, and at the same time over 150 churches destroyed?
(VB, 13 February 2008 18:22)
“Poor good” bishop was only pointing that he is ready again for the war, but giving the blood of innocent young Serbian guys for nothing! Kosovo was lost 20 years ago. Officially in 1999. when Serbian military troops retreated.
No Serbian politician nor bishop ever address to Albanian people, learn their language, try to get closer. Human beings are important not “holly lands”! We do not need churches to pray we need democracy to live! Good luck dear Albanian people on your way to democracy!
(Christian, 15 February 2008 15:54)
Every word that Rod wrote in his post is nothing but the truth, every. I have been to Kosovo and he is absolutely right about everything he said. There are mane evidences that prove his words.
Excellent post Rod!
(bmrusila, 13 February 2008 16:36)
"They were burned with good reason and now holy mosques rest in their place. (Arzo, 14 February 2008 03:45)"
Arzo, that is one of the most offensive and scary comments I've seen on this site. I do hope plenty of Western politicians become aware of those sorts of opinions among the Albanian population. I expect the moderate elements of Albanian society here to strongly condemn such irresponsible comments.
Blero, many times the lists of Churches have been posted here, stop trying to rewrite history, its shameful, I will make the same comments towards my fellow Serbs who say such things.
"Show me evidence where orthodox christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! (Rod, 13 February 2008 21:03) "
Rod, I lived in Bosnia for a while and I've personally seen the churches in Bosnia and Krajina that Serbs destroyed, so yes that absolutely did happen and for that I am ashamed. I would add that I saw plenty of Ustashe graffiti covered destroyed Orthodox churches as well.
"I don't know the main reason mosques were destroyed though, is it because they were Muslim, or because they were Albanian? I would like to know what the Serbs in these posts think. I would like to know how strong identification of ethnicity and religion is for Serbs. (shqarthi, 14 February 2008 06:21)"
Shqarthi, destroying Churches seems to be a favorite past time of everyone in the region. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be because we were fighting one another and not because you were Albanian or Muslim. Serbs, unlike others in the region, have never attempted to forcibly convert the other Yugoslavs to their religion.
Yes, Orthodoxy is of course a strong identifier for the Serbian people. Catholic Serbs are called Croatians and Muslims Serbs are called Bosniaks. We're sort of a special magical ethnicity in that we can change our "race" at will merely by converting our religion. I would agree that Albanians have learned to work together in a way that failed for us Yugoslavs. Its too bad really.
(Matthew, 14 February 2008 18:16)
First, Bishop Artemije is speaking more for himself than the SPC. Many non-Orthodox tend to think the church speaks as one united body. This could not be further from the truth. Regardless of nationality, Orthodox bishops run the gamut from extremely progressive to extremely conservative. Artemije is understandibly reacting to the fate of his diocese in Kosovo.
Second, while most Serbs sympathize with the plight of their fellow Serbs in Kosovo, and the images of burning churches over the last 8 years is a vivid memory, I don't think "state of the art weapons systems" are the way to defend one's propetry. True it's a less than subtle way of getting one's point across, but we're not interested in turning monasteries into missle bases.
Third, I have little doubt that Serbia's Action Plan has the protection of churches, monasteries, and other cultural landmarks as one of its fundamental provisions. Furthermore, once K-Serbs declare their own government in Kosovo, I'm sure administration will extend to these monasteries, and will continue to be under the protection of KFOR for the indefinite future.
Last, I've never been to Visoki Decani, Pec, or Gracanica. I'd love to go, and from what I've read and heard, Decani itself it an oasis of peace and tranquility. I'm not interested in entering the monastery and seeing a missle guidance system sitting in the courtyard.
(Mike, 13 February 2008 16:06)
"1. It's wrong to say the Kosovo leadership is anti-Christian, since many of the Kosovar population is Catholic and there's even a street in Pristina called Mother Theresa; "
(Bad Gorilla, 13 Feb. 2008)
1.) It is right to say that the KLA Albanian leaders are anti-Serbian, anti-Roma, anti-Gorani, anti-Bosniak, anti-Vlach, and anti everyone else who isn't Albanian. This is especially true since the KLA terrorzied & expelled over 2/3 of the non-albanians from Kosovo.
Also Albanian Leaders in Kosovo are obviously very anti-Orthodox Christians, since the KLA directed the destruction of over 150 churches in the past 8 years.
Also I would like to point out that less than 10% of Albanians in Kosovo are Christians, in contrast to Albania where 30% of Albanians are Christian. Now why is that? Must have something to do with all of the Wahabbi Mosques that the Saudis are paying for Albanians to build. Furthermore, Mother Teresa was honored by Albanians in Pristina because she is Albanian, not because she is Christian. Remeber, Albanians in Kosovo also built cafes and named them in honor of Al Qaeda & Adolf Hitler, and that seems pretty anti-Christian to me.
"2. Islam in Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia tends to be less radical than the Orthodoxy in Serbia, Bosnia and Russia."
(Bad Gorilla, 13 February 2008)
You're joking right? It is a proven fact that Albanian Muslim terrorists have destroyed over 150 churches Kosovo, and expelled 2/3 of the christian population from the territory over the past 9 years. Show me evidence where orthodox christians have destroyed over 150 mosques in Serbia, Russia, or Bosnia in the past 9 years! Obvioulsy you can't, because no such evidence exists!
Seriously for once, try saying something that you can actually prove, instead of spreading such horrible lies everytime you post here.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 21:03)
"For a wahabbi Muslim this is very odd to drink rakija, wouldn't you agree with me Rod?."
Understandable yes, odd no!
You should ask Kosovo's top Islamic leader, Mufti Naim Ternava, this question.
Seems clear to me that the fellow enjoys the drink more then he desires to adhere to the practices of the whabbi Muslims.
(Roger7, 14 February 2008 18:35)
Excellent posts Rod, right on the money! The albanian counter claims to your posts here are absolute nonsense. Let's be real here - the truth is Serbian army & police are the "only" ones that will protect Serbs.
(Ratko, 14 February 2008 16:23)
TonyT its the Kosovo Albanians that brought the Orthodox leaders into the conflict whan they destroied 155 + churches in the name of independence. Freddy, the KPS, please they have as much credability as a 2 bit theaf. The Bishop does'nt have to answer to them. Arzo, it's Arkon's Tigers, and like the Croatian bishiops blessed their soulders so did ours. I'd bet that the muslim leaders in Kosovo blessed the KLA also. MIRI, maybe someone should show the K-Albanians a recent calender also ( Illyria, Dardania, everything in the world is Albanian....etc.) The Serbs survived Muslim repretion for centuries with the cross in one hand and a sword in the other. There is no difference now. Serbs do not want to be under any muslim rule,we've been there before, no matter how secular the K-albanians say they are. Artan, Rod understands the seriousness of the situation. and he's right.
(Delije, 13 February 2008 17:10)
In 2007, Kosovo's top Islamic leader, Mufti Naim Ternava, visited the US. During his travels he preached in the Detroit area telling others that “Thousands of miles away from here, there are Muslim brothers in Kosovo who suffered and who are close religious brothers with you." He went on to advocate for the independence of Kosovo and say, "thousands of people…went as shahids(martyrs) during all these sufferings"
Mufti Ternava also urged the crowd to follow the teachings of Islam."Islam is such a comprehensive religion which includes all what the family needs and what an individual needs in this world," he said. "Help others to understand it. Teach it to others."
I would not call the Mufti a terrorist but then, I would not be so crude and primitive as to call him an "old man".
So, as the per the definition, those who perished, or "shahids", were martyred in the cause of Islam?
Seems that the practice of Islam is alive and well in Kosovo.
(Roger7, 13 February 2008 17:24)
Artan, my facts are well documented,and your negative comments about me clearly demonstrate your own immaturity.
But just so we're clear, exactly which of the facts stated by me are you denying?
Are you denying he wholesale destruction of Serb villages,churches,monuments, and cultural heritage in Kosovo over the past 9 years? Are you denying that the Albanians ethically cleansed 2/3 of the non albanian population (220,000 people, or 11% of Kosovo's population)? Are you denying that Wahabbi Mosques are being constructed with Saudi Money? Are you denying the KLA links to Al Qaeda, which even the US State department acknowledged before Clinton threw in with them in 1999?
Remember the Albanians from Kosovo who were caught trying to bomb Fort Dix several months ago? All of them acknowleged membership in the KLA, as well as their ties Al Qaeda during questioning. One of the Albanian bombers even referred to Bin Laden affectionately as "UNCLE BENNY". This was reported in American newspapers all over the country.
Also, Albanian Terrorist attacks against Serbs and others both living and dead (even Serb graves aren't safe from Albanian terror)happen almost daily,and are well documented. In fact, there are over 9 years of archives here at B92 alone to validate all of the facts I just mentioned.
So Artan, exactly what are you disputing? Because my facts are indeed quite sound. And just for the record it's spelled "KOSOVO", and no I haven't been there, but my wife worked for UNMIK as an interpretter in Kosovska Mitrovica for 2 years. During here time in UNMIK, my wife visited many of the serb enclaves both north & south of the Ibar river, and she witnessed many of the sort of atrocities that I spoke of 1st hand!
I know that people like you Artan, who post here to spread propoganda & hate, don't want the truth to be told, as this clearly jeporadizes your goal of mono-ethnic, Albanian "indipindint kosava". But guess what, I don't care what you want.
I stand behind my earlier statements, Serbia has every legal and moral right in the world to protect her territory, people, and cultural heritage. I agree with the bishop that only Serbian security forces can insure the safety of Serbs and Non-Albanians living in Kosovo. The past 9 years have proven above all else, that Nato is both unwilling and unable to protect Serbs and others in Kosovo from Albanian terror.
(Rod, 13 February 2008 16:58)
Please stop lying already. The only reason why albanians didn't destroy Serb Churches during the Ottoman days, was because the Ottoman empire had laws protecting Christians and Jews, albeit even though they were mistreated & and by law were considered 2nd class people by the Ottoman government. Furthermore, Serbs still constituted a majority in Kosovo during most of the Ottoman occupation, and they in fact protected their own churches.
On another note, none of the KLA leaders ever appologized for their attrocities against Serbs, neither in 2004, nor any other time over the past 9 years.
Furthermore Miri, the fabricated genocide which you insist was carried out by Milosevic, never happened.
Less than 10,000 people died over the course of a 2 year war in Kosovo, this was on both sides. This is not genocide. Also Albanians did not start leaving Kosovo large numbers until after Nato began bombing (even though war had raged in Kosovo for 2 years prior to that point). Serbian forces did not expell Albanians from Kosovo, Miri. the majority of Albanians fled Kosovo because Nato was bombing, and/or the KLA told them to leave, and not because of anything that the Serbs did. Finally, the reason why Milosevic sent the JNA into Kosovo in the 1st place, was because the KLA was murdering policemen, Orthodox clergy, and civillians,and terrorizing everyone, including Albanians who refused to support the KLA's jihad against Serbs. Miri,if you Albanians want to blame anyone for the troubles that befell you in 1999, then blame yourselves, since you were supporting the very terrorists who started the Kosovo war in the 1st place.
As far as apologies go, Albanians have infinately more things to apologize for in Kosovo, than the Serbs ever will... starting with the genocide that Alabanians committed against Serbs, Romas, & Jews in Kosovo, while serving the Nazi's in WWII (over 50,000 killed, and another 120,000 expelled), and followed by over 60 years of terror committed by Albanians, while pursuing their goal of an ethnically pure "indipindint kosova", aka. "greater Albania". Over 40,000 Serbs fled Albanian terror in Kosovo during the 1980's alone, and we all know that since 1999, over 220,000 Serbs, Roma, and others have been ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by the KLA.
Clearly Albanians respect no one but themselves. This is evident not only in Kosovo, but also in Western Macedonia
as well.
In any event Miri, I have nothing to apologize to you for, as my concience is clear. Nice try though, better luck next time.
(Rod, 14 February 2008 05:40)
albi
If the only person you can find to support your position is Maggie Thatcher then you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Thatcher is now an utterly discredited figure and something of a joke in Western Europe.
She is also the person who allowed ten Irishmen to die on hunger strike in her callous determination to hang onto the remnants of the empire.
(Tom O'Donoghue, 13 February 2008 23:34)
as a fellow Irishman I could not agree with you more. The fact that 'Team Kosova' is quoting Maggie Thatcher in their independence debate is furtehr proof of the moral, social and political bankruptcy of the Team Kosova agenda. Nobody, no one and no organisation has any authority to dismember and destroy the Reprublic of Serbia. In the face of such vitriol and dehumanising attacks, I urge the Serbian nation to hold firm not give up 1 inch. Justice, righteousness and international law will prevail in the end.
(Niall O'Doherty, 14 February 2008 14:04)
"Fascinating-isn't religion supposed to be about peace."
tonyt
assuming ur statement is correct... (still laughin') who exactly is the religion supposed to be bringing peace to? to all people or only to its followers? Do I need to compare Islam and Christianity, as has been done so many times by so many others?? The differences are vast.
Kosovo je Serbia
Serbs of diaspora are with you!
(DJ MeHighLow, 14 February 2008 02:10)
"Rod, since you seem to be well informed on "factual evidence," please enlighten us about the number of mosques, catholic churches, and people that Serbia destroyed.
(Ptoleme, 13 February 2008 19:01)"
Ptoleme,
The evidence that no (or few) Catholic churches and mosques have been destroyed is very simple. If they had been destroyed one can be sure that the Western, Kosovo, Croatian and Bosnian media would have covered it like there is no tomorrow. They would have seized this unique opportunity to further "prove" that the Serbs are not only barbarian, but also religious fanatics. Even after Serbia liberated Kosovo in 1912 they did not destroy all mosques even after 500 years of Ottoman occupation and repression. Even after WWII many German churches in Vojvodina, that belonged to the Volksdeutschen who colaborated heavily with the Nazi's and who were driven out by the Communist, were left untouched. The Serbian Orthodox church will be in Kosovo for a long long time and may God prevent that one day all old churches and monasteries will have to be removed outside of Kosovo to save them and keep them as a memory and inspiration before history will be vanished for ever.
(Zoran, 13 February 2008 22:48)