BERLIN, BELGRADE -- Germany has received Serbia’s official letter of protest over Ambassador Andreas Zobel’s statements made Wednesday.
Source: B92, Beta
Close the entire text of the article here
The letter of protest states that Belgrade demanded clarification on whether Zobel’s observations reflected Berlin’s official position.
Serbia has, however, stopped short of demanding Zobel’s recall.
In the meantime, B92 has learnt from its sources at the Bundestag’s Foreign Relations Committee that Andreas Zobel will be summoned to Berlin to account for his statements.
The Committee’s deputy chairman Gert Weisskirchen told B92 that Ambassador Zobel made a reckless statement which did not mirror Germany’s state position.
Weisskirchen also said that “Belgrade reacted in a moderate and sensible manner,” adding that “the ball was now in the court of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs which had to point out to Zobel the irresponsible nature of his act.”
“It is clear that whatever a German ambassador says in his official speech and personal statements while he enjoys hospitality of a host country reflects the official standpoint of the German Government, and can be interpreted as such. However, in this case the German Government is not accountable for Ambassador Zobel’s ludicrous statement,” Weisskirchen said.
Weisskirchen also said that “Zobel had to convince the public that the current misunderstanding was isolated and unique, and apologize to the Serbian and German public for his display of irresponsibility.”
Weisskirchen added he could not predict German Foreign Ministry’s reaction in the matter, voicing hope that German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier would respect Belgrade’s reaction.
A German Foreign Ministry representative said earlier today that “the Ministry assumed the Serbian Government took notice of German Ambassador to Serbia Andreas Zobel’s statements to the press” adding she could not make any additional comments on the issue for the time being.
Andreas Zobel apologized Wednesday for making "possibly unclear remarks that Serbia’s resolute opposition to Kosovo’s independence might lead to destabilization of Vojvodina and southern Serbia".
“All my statements, whether true or misconstrued, could only be assigned to myself personally,” Zobel said, adding that his statements didn’t reflect the position of the state of Germany or the European Union
In that case, Zobel, you should be more careful in the future, not to make any further anti-Serb comments.
This provoacation of Germany could not come at a worse time (the EU has already done enough damage to its relationship with democratic Serbia)
(DP, 13 April 2007 10:25)
He is the German Ambassador so what on earth does he think his words at a conference as the "German Ambassador" convey other then Germany's and EU (given Germany's EU presidency) word. If they were not then that would imply he was not the German Ambassador - maybe that is a hint - his position is no longer tenable!!!
I hope Wordsworth & Polt are taking note.
Serbia needs to ensure it becomes more diplomatically assertive - doing so will ensure Ahtisaari also has to either think again or move on!
(Princip, UK, 13 April 2007 10:29)
Of course officials in Germany are silent. What shall they say? Yes, we agree with that of Zobel and we dont respect your people and your country and yes we want back what was ours before we lost WWI.
(Justice Veritas, 13 April 2007 10:47)
He is not employed to give his personal comments. He is a diplomat, not an analyst or commentator. His role in Serbia is to represent the positions of the German Government, and where appropriate those of the EU (given that Germany holds the presidency of the EU). If he is incapable of doing this then he should not be there, especially as he has simply served to confirm in the minds of many that Germany holds an intrinsically anti-Serb position. If he did not speak on behalf of Berlin, which is his job, then he should be removed for being such a poor diplomat and doing real damage to Serb-German relations at such an critical moment.
(Jim, 13 April 2007 11:18)
I agree with the statement, to Germans the Serbs are natural enemy.
And for sure our government will back Ahtisaari's plan, as that is the only logical solution, and drafted by the very person elected by UN.
No one in EU will even think of having again Serbian paramilitary troops back in Kosovo, we are all aware and we've seen scenes from TV on what happened there, so no EU country will take that into it's conciseness.
Serbia stands not a good situation and the way things are going I don't see any improvement, criminals like Kostunica wont do any good to Serbia, Milosevic is a pure example of that.
I see already Vojvodina separated from Serbia, people living there already want economical independence, oh by the way no body wants to live with Serbs or I'm wrong?
auf wiedersehen
Z
(Zimmerman, 13 April 2007 11:35)
What I personally think he was trying to say was that same arguements of Serbia's for a right to Kosovo could be used for Hungary to claim Vojvodina. Now noone in their mind really thinks Hungary will do that. I think he was just trying to say that Serbia does not have a right to Kosovo and nothing to do with Vojvodina. But kostunica etc are trying to stir the pot so that in future they can point to this comment and say "see EU said this and therefore this is why we didnt do that and its why that happened". Whilst the ambassoder should have been careful about his choice of words, he didnt intentionally mean to get vojvodina involved at all. And I dont think it was a secret that Germany wants Kosovo independent anyway.
(Daniel, 13 April 2007 11:41)
Yes Zimmerman you are wrong about Vojvodina when you say "no body wants to live with Serbs". This is because Serbs make up 65% of the population of Vojvodina. That tired old argument simply doesn't stand up to the facts.
(Philip Davies, 13 April 2007 12:17)
i see many people here saying how irresponsible and undiplomatic the ambassador was on his comments, who is to say that he was doing just that. Think and the penny might drop why he said what he said!
(M, 13 April 2007 12:23)
Well for the serbs its OK to say that Independence of Kosova will cause a precedent, but for the others its not ok to say that If Kosova does not get Independence then it will be used t flare up other problems.
" The truth Hurts" says a proverb and this is seen very well in this case because what Mr. Zobel said is the truth and this truth is hurting the serbs very much. It is the truth that Serbs won Kosova in 1912 through the war. ALso won Vojvodina through war in 1918 and it is also TRUE that Serbia lost Kosova in 1999 through the war.
WHatever you win, you can also loose serbs, so do not worry that much.
Again, thanks to Mr. Zobel for telling some truth about what happened in Balkans and how serbs got Kosova and Vojvodina.
This fact mentioned by Mr. Zobel really woke up some serbs as they are still deep in sleep.
I know that the truth hurts, but its better to deal with it and I hope that the serbs will start to deal with it.
THanks.
(Afrim Hoxha, 13 April 2007 12:28)
Daniel good point,
"What I personally think he was trying"
- he is not in his home and a normal individual but on "official" duty as a "official Ambassador of Germany" and therefore this is not just a "personal" viewpoint but that of the state you represent and it's authority (which is also as EU president currently).
Daniel & M,
the point that he and you insinuate at is false and baseless. As such makes your view point incredible and few infer from it. However, now because of his position, public and official admission this position that he suggests needs clarifying by Germany. If this is indeed their view point then fine at least Serbia has clarity on the German viewpoint. Following on then this can be fully clarified by the EU too (Germany being the EU president) - where I very much doubt it is the consensus!!! Serbia has much to gain form this rather extened slip of the tongue and the greater the pause in silence form the Germans the greater a need for a full and clear clarification!!!
Zimmerman,
in which case I must take from you view point that you would welcome an equally absurd request from the Turkish Ambassador to Germany for the dismemberment of Germany into turkish fiefdoms while we are at it!!! Gladly there are plenty of Germans who would not be so pleased to know how their "Ambassadors" are so easy with their tongue!!! What next would Zobel suggest - I guess many German politicians are thankful he was not the Ambassador to Isreal!!!
I think it is auf wiedersehen Zobel and this absurd notion of dismembering a UN recognised State !!!
(Princip, UK, 13 April 2007 13:01)
Continuing to ask for the removal of western ambassadors and politicians is the most stupid thing you could ever do.
These people are not there to offer comfort to you and your nationalist ideology, they are there to represent their own countries.
I think you have cried wolf far too many times, and i am certain the west does not and will not take your removal requests seriously.
I think Daniel explained extremely well what the German ambassador was trying to say. And i am sure that you and the other serbs here understand that him comparing Kosovo with Voivodina had nothing to do with Hungary's territorial claim to Vojvodina.
Yet again your Serbian politicials base most of their arguements on misinterpretations and misunderstandings, which are generaly known to the the tactics of the weak minded and unintelegent people.
Refering to WWI and WWII when discussing this issue is neither fair nor right towards a Germany which for more than 50 years has apologised for what happened during the world wars and has created a positive and democratic image for itself. They have apoligised time and again for 50 years for what happened and quite frankly i think its about time people gave them a break. Unlike Serbia who despite commiting countless acts of genocide (yes "genocide" read lemkins definition of it) and murder towards its neighbours has never apologised nor accepted its responsibility.
(Nick, 13 April 2007 13:43)
DP,
Democratic Serbia under Kostunica? Are you kidding?
Serbia is as "democratic" as Russia of Putin. You have a long way to go. At this slow pace it will take you 40-50 years.
(Joe, 13 April 2007 14:09)
Philip Davies why are you not telling that the Serbs reach 65% of the population of Vojvodina only because of the continuous government directed migration of Serbs to that area since 1918?
In 1918 the Backa was 80-90% inhabited by Hungarians. They lived there for 1000 years. The Serbs came to Vojvodina from Kosovo around 1690, 250,000 of them with their bishop fleeing the Turks. The Hungarians let them in...people know the rest.
Today the Hungarians live in fear in Vojvodina, they are harassed on a daily basis. Do you called it harmonious living with the Serbs?
(Joe, 13 April 2007 14:27)
Wonderful, I am only too aware and you too must have read; Genocide - A Modern Crime, by Raphael Lemkin. But if you have forgotten let me quote a piece for you;
"More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong."
- Now consider it fully and ask in the Serbian province where the ethnic-Albanians numbers have grown and grown since when as you would suggest (and even by the German Amabassador Zobel) "Serbs invavded" in 1912 and yet those Serbs to whom their historical and most sacred of lands is Kosovo & Metohija have seen in these last 95 years seen " destruction of the essential foundations of the life of" Serbian national group so that this group "wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight". In 96-99 the KLA/UCK decided that things were not moving fast enough and felt given "these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort".
Again today, the UN is told Independence or War - we will use our machine guns again!!! In which case I ask who is perpetrating the act of genocide ???…??
(Princip, UK, 13 April 2007 14:27)
Zimmerman, I fully agree with your assessment. Yes eveybody remembers from TV, etc what happened in Kosovo. You are also 100% right about people like Kostunica. You are also well informed about Vojvodina. Until now only Hungarians were harassed by Serbs. Now also Slovaks, Russins and Croates. If they had a choice you know very well that they would not live with Serbs any longer.
(Joe, 13 April 2007 14:42)
Nick,
This is EXCELLENT news from you! You mean I can find/read/listen to/see an apology by the Germans for what they did to Serbia in WW2? Superb! Where? Where can I get the apology for the retribution act of 100 Serb civilians shot for every 1 German soldier killed in ambush or 10 Serb lives for 1 wounded German? And, by extension, for the October 1941 Kragujevac massacre (in the hearts and minds of even the youngest German schoolchild, surely, after all, history taught in Germany's schools is not just about feeling bad about a Steven Spielberg film, is it)? The apology for destroying Belgrade from the air in 1941? If Germany wants to be given a "break" like you say, show me the specific apologies by those responsible. Like you allege, "They have apoligised time and again for 50 years for what happened...", so let's see a specific apology. Speaking as an individual Serb - not for anyone else here, just myself - I have never found/located any kind of apology from the Germans for what they did to Serbia in WW2. They paid reparations to a Communist Yugoslav state after the war, but my interpretation of that is that they went in, killed people and then paid money for a Communist regime to be underwritten/supported financially afterwards. That's like murdering someone and then paying someone to keep their family in prison afterwards.
(Stevo, 13 April 2007 15:30)
lies, lies and damn lies. Other ethnic groups are not harrassed as you try to lie in Vojvodina. On the contrary many Serbs promote the idividual ethnic groups and wish them to continue with their identity. The Slovaks for instance who settled in Koavica have maintained their Slovak identity for generations. I suggest anyone to read up on Naive art that is inspiring to Slovaks, Serbs and all nationalities throughout the world. I place a link containing an article "Naive Art of Kovačica" by
Pavel Babka which highlights the peaceful nature of co-habitation of all the peoples of Serbia.
[link]
Joe, please stop with your hatred it does little for your credibility!!! I thought such hatred of other ethnic groups was something of the past!!!
(Princip, UK, 13 April 2007 15:31)
While Serbia's actions in Kosovo since 1912 which intensified in 1998-1999 was a clear "coordinated plan aimed at" the treatment of the Serbs is a "consequence of"
Unlike the genocide perpetrated by the Serbian State the acts of violence towards the serbian community in Kosovo which have been constantly decreasing were not planned at the highest levels of our Government and there was no coordinated plan.
The isolation of the serbs now is a direct consequence of the actions of the Serbian State.
There is a huge difference betwen the actions of a State and those of certain individuals.
I think its in all our interstest to see the kosovo serbs move freely and without fear. However it is quite clear that belgrade has intentionally inffluenced the kosovo serbs not to become a part of the Kosovo society and thus is largely responsible for the current position of the Kosovo Serbs.
Although i do not deny that such freedom of movement has had and still has met some resistance by some kosovo albanians, UNTIL and UNLESS the Kosovo Serbs decide they WANT to become a part of our society i really dont see how they can possibly move freely and without fear.
The kosovo serbs are the victims of cruel belgrade politics and have isolated themselves.
(Nick, 13 April 2007 15:51)
Your comments on that Serbs in Vojvodnia are harrasing Russians and Croats is BUNK! I visited Novi Sad last summer with a group of students from the States and was surprised how cosmopalitan the city was.
The kids we ran into showed us great places to visit in the city. You may say what you like, but for those who have visited Serbia, left with a smile. By the way for those that have not, if ever in Europe, go to Serbia, it's still a bargain.
(Mark, 13 April 2007 15:58)
Don't be fooled here that he was just talking his mind out. He is representative of the German government.
I think it's time that someone in Belgrade starts secret talks with the Russians in regard to defence and security issues.
(sreten, 13 April 2007 16:45)
I will eat my keyboard IF you can provide genuine evidence for one single act of genocide by Yugoslavian security forces in Kosovo and also prove that it was planned at the highest level of government!
Also, why should the K.Serbs participate in the temporary institutions of foreign powers run by terrorist insurgents when K.Serbs still live within the borders OF THEIR OWN STATE?
(Jack, 13 April 2007 16:56)
You and your group's tour in Novi Sad looks to me like a guided tour in the old Sovietunion. You ran into serbian kids..definitively not into hungarian ones. They would have told you a very different story. Also Hungarians of Novi Sad, who wake up in the morning to find treatening slogans written on their doors or walls. So you should go back a second time and do your homework before spreading serbian propoganda.
(Joe, 13 April 2007 17:10)
"The kosovo serbs are the victims of cruel belgrade politics and have isolated themselves."
But then given your comment yesterday
"In fact i havent seen a Serb in Prishtina for over a year now."
(Nick, Thursday, 12 April, 2007, 13:29)
[link]
- it really does not surprise me that you suggest that the Serbs are to blame for their own "wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity". But what of the events prior to 1999???
I note you failed to reply to Stevo request to back up claims that the Germans have indeed apologised for what they have done to the Serbs in the past!
On another point you state;
"Unlike Serbia who despite commiting countless acts of genocide (yes "genocide" read lemkins definition of it) and murder towards its neighbours has never apologised nor accepted its responsibility."
- could you please read up on the ICJ acquital of Serbia in being responsible for any Genocide in BiH while it seems that Croatia is also likely to fail with such a case. However, from memory, the first mass expulsion of an ethnicity was organised by the Croats, when they expelled (and/or killed) over 250,000 ethnic Serbs from the Kajina region. (Don't remember NATO - or the western press - making much of a fuss about that). Of which I am sure Ceku was highly responsible for organising!!!!
Regarding Kosovo & Metohija could you please inform us all of some credible proof of Serbia commiting Genocide??? Last I knew even the ICTY (Hague) had dropped any such mention of Genocide with regard to Kosovo & Metohja against Milosevic while he was alive. His indictment was amened and it starts with;
CHARGES
53. Following the commencement of the joint criminal enterprise, beginning on or about 1 January 1999 and continuing until 20 June 1999, Slobodan MILOSEVIC, Milan MILUTINOVIC, Nikola SAINOVIC, Dragoljub OJDANIC, Vlajko STOJILJKOVIC and others known and unknown, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted in a deliberate and widespread or systematic campaign of terror and violence directed at Kosovo Albanian civilians living in Kosovo in the FRY.
Beyond that from what I recall there was no smoking gun offered by the prosecutor and they did indeed change the indictment to a date of action from 1st Jan. 1999 - 20th June 1999 trying to fit what little evidence they had!!!
[link]
I personally would have prfered him to live to the end that the case could have come to a judgement.
Beyond that I do not deny that innocent civillians were not killed and for this those responsible should indeed be held responsible. War or not 1 innocent civilian killed no matter their ethnicity is wrong frankly and that individual must face judgement as should those in the position to stop it! However, we all know that the truth is far from the propaganda that was spun in the Western media and by Politicians alike to illegally intervene in this attempt at partitioning Serbia!!! However, they failed in their attempt since resolution 1244 did in fact reconfirm Serbia's Intergrity - hence why some would like us all to forget and sign at the dotted like. Thankfully Serbia has said and will now always block this illegal attempted partition and dismemberment!
On another point you fail to mention the treatment of the Serbs in the province since 1939 - but then I guess this does not suit your argument that the Serbs are barbarians out to slaughter all ethnic-Albanians within Serbia's borders. Rather you would suggest it was not planned at all - intimidation just happens does it???? SS Skandeberg just happens does it????
Furthermore, could you answer what is different between ethnic-Albanians in the rest of Serbia over those who live in Serbia's province of Kosovo & Metohija????
I look forward to your reply with interest!
(Princip, UK, 13 April 2007 17:26)
I am not surprised that you deny all harassement against minorities and specially against Hungarians, who suffer the most in Vojvodina. Why would ever a Serb admit such harassments? By admitting them he would not be a Serb anymore. About Slovaks and Russins: they are much better treated than Hungarians because they are slavs too. Even so about 2 months ago in a serbian commmunity the visiting slovak succer team (also from Vojvodina) was mishandled in a very agressive way. Very offensive anti-slovak slurs were shouted towards them. I
was surprised to learn that after atrocities committed against Hungarians (sometime school children) Slovaks...your slav brothers can also be harassed.
The situation for Hungarians is so bad that many of my hungarian friends are affraid to cross the border into Serbia. This is in 2007 when Serbs want to join the EU!!!!
It is scandaleous!!
(Joe, 13 April 2007 18:10)
I dont see how i can provide you with the proff you seek, do you want me to post a bunch of meaningless assesments and reports of various credible international organisations or will you just take my word for it?
The very act of the sistematic expulsion of hundreds of thousands of K Albanians from Kosovo and the murder of tens of thousands is genocide according to the official definition.
Such expulsion was done by the MUP police, VJ and paramilitary forces, I KNOW because i was one of the refugees who was forced to cross the Kosovo Albania border on foot and forced to sleep for 2 nights at the border crossing under the Ak-47's of the VJ.
On the month of April 1999 the entire town of Gjakova (serb: Djakovica) was emptied and thousands were killed. The bodies are countinuing to come from Batajnica.
I dont know how i can prove this to you except to tell you that I WAS THERE.
In order to provide you with any real proff on the occurrence of genonice i would need statements from world governments confirming that what happened in Kosovo was in fact genocide.
But i cant do that. And the reason why i cant do that is because back when it was happening the world governments did not want to classify what was happening as genocide because that would automaticly force them to take measures to implement the UN Convention on the Prevention of Genocide of 1948.
However, because the world governments did not classify what happened as genocide does not mean that it wasnt. The UN convention is quite clear.
(Nick, 13 April 2007 18:49)
This is the biggest joke I read on this web site. You are telling I am jealous. Jealous of whom or what? Living in the USA don't tell me that I am jealous of the Serbs, of their "democratic" institutions or their very high living standard. About being informed: I am reading news in english, french, germain and even hungarian on a daily basis. I read about the Vojvodina situation on a hungarian web site from Vojvodina. We are in the XXI century. You Serbs try to deny things like communists in the good old days but the facts get around nowadays. Change your tactics or get reel. Do not deny the facts!
(Joe, 13 April 2007 19:05)
of meaningless LINKS with assesments and reports of various credible international organisations or will you just take my word for it?
(Nick, 13 April 2007 19:15)
I personally know a very nice Slovak girl in Vojvodina and I spoke in-depth with her about minorities in that region as at the time it came as a great surprise to me that it was so multi-ethnic. Her entire village still speaks Slovak and she was very statisfied with the way in which minorities were treated. I personally have never seen nor heard of the types of oppresion which you seem so intent upon. Novi Sad is my favorite city in all of the Balkans. It is known for being the cradle of Serbian culture and the arts. Much of Serbia's modernization in the last century came as a result of intellectual Serbs from that region. One branch of my family is from Novi Sad, and that branch founded the first library in Belgrade, and held the first play ever conducted in Serbian in Risan in 1851. Compare it to any other region in the former Yugoslavia and it sets a high standard for tolerance and multiculturalism. Please let us know if you have a better example from the former Yugoslavia of various ethnic groups living in harmony as they do in Vojvodina.
(Matthew, 13 April 2007 19:26)
The germans have time and again apologised in “general” for the crimes commited by them during WWII. I think its much to arrogant and unresonable to ask them to apologise to each serb individually. If you seek general german apologies for what happened in WWII all you have to do is google it.
The Serbs on the other hand have not only not apologised but most belive it never happened.
---…--
"wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity"
As i said this is a direct consequence of Serbian actions in Kosovo before and during 1999. Unles and until you recondise and accept what happened to the k albanians in the 90’s you wont understand the rest of this paragraph.
In the post above i openly stated that i can not deny “some” k albanians refuse to grant security to the k serbs but i really dont see how they can be made to change their minds when the k serbs themselves are allowing themselves to become political pupets of belgrade and are allowing themselves to be isolated by not participating in the new Kosovo institutions and by refusing to even accept the new reality and administration in Kosovo. Thefore the k serbs are the major contributors of their own misfortune.
---…--
“ICJ acquital of Serbia”
We all know that the ICJ is a political body who is more interested in keeping stabilty and not setting precedents than delivering justice. Condeming serbia of genocide would destabilise the region’s aims towards EU integration and do more harm than good. That is how the ICJ sees this.
---…--
“Attempts at partitioning Serbia”
Although i hate presenting counter questions, i must ask you “What possible interest the west had to partition Serbia?”
If you are implying that NATO’s intervention in Kosovo was aimed at partitioning Serbia then i think you are very wrong. NATO’s war was principaly aimed at preventing genocide and ethnic cleansing and in fact it has been coined in many books and articles as “the first humanitarian war”. The secondary aim was to prove NATO’s determination and right to exist as an institution after the shamefull performance in Bosnia and other conflicts.
---…--
“treatment of the Serbs in the province since 1939”
While there were incidents betwen 1939 and 1945 in the period betwen 1945 and 1999 Serbia had a firm grip on Kosovo and to claim the Serbs suffered during that period is delusional.
Exception: 1974 – 1989 the Serbs and Albanians were pretty much equal in all areas of life and the Serbs took that as an insult and considered it a violation of their rightful claims to priviledges in the holy land of kosmet.
---…--
“difference betwen Kosovo Albanians and Albanians living in Serbia proper”
1. There arent many albanians living in Serbia proper.
2. During the ottoman times Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia moved in and out at various intervals and those that are left in Serbia proper now are the remnants of those population movements, with the exception of the Presevo valley who were always part of Kosovo and was unjustly left out of its borders.
(Nick, 13 April 2007 19:51)
Change your tactics or get reel. Do not deny the facts!
(Joe, 13 April 2007, 19:05)
Here are some facts for you:
1938-Benes of Czechoslovakia was bullied by Adolf Hitler and F Hungary was promised part of Slovakia for support.
1941-Hitler unleashed his fury and Operation Punishment was launched against Yugoslavia. The Hungarian Fascist Horthy was given Vojvodina and Srem for his support.
The Hungarian Minority in Vojvodina is not mistreated in any way exept for isolated incidents. No different in how the Hungarian minority is being Treated in Bessarabia, Transylvania or any other area.
The Treaty of Trianon heavily punished the Hungarians and yes, it was probably extreme, but don't blame the Serbs for that misfortume.
Instead of reading your right wing magazines, why dont' you visit Subotica, Novi Sad and see for yourself how the Serbs and Hungarians live together.
(konstantin gregovic, 13 April 2007 20:06)
The Serbs have never committed genocide! Genocide was committed against them and it seems that the same forces are at work today. Expulsion of people is not genocide, it is ethnic cleansing. This happened on all sides and is typical in wars throughout history. The largest such cleansing in the Yugoslav wars of the 90's was done in Serbian Krajina, Croatian regulars cleansed 200,000 or more Serbs that where defended by only militias & not the Serbian army. Joe; you are a Serb hater & a very smart propagandist! I also am an American born and raised and I can tell everyone reading that most Americans are not anti-Serb. Most do not want Kosovo to be independant! They do not want another Islamo Fascist terrorist state that will breed and harbor more fanatics! The problem is that the American government is bought & paid for without the average person having any say. Go Democracy!
(Zoran, 13 April 2007 20:07)
Yes I want the reports from investigations by impartial reputable organisations to back up what you say.
The 'I know because I was there' line doesn't work. Some Albanians experienced very bad things in Kosovo, (and yes there were illegal killings perpetrated by individuals), but even reports by these individuals do not amount to anymore than what happens during conflict. The numbers simply do not support the term genocide or even mass murder.
Therefore unsubstantiated talk of thousands dead, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc is racist propaganda.
Continuing with this propaganda will setback any hope of reconciliation and will therefore make the economic and political development of the region impossible in the near or even medium future.
Do you not want to build a prosperous future for your self and your family? Whether Kosovo stays with Serbia or not, reconciliation and close co-operation between the peoples of the region is essential if you want a brighter future!!
(Jack, 13 April 2007 20:28)
This is the worse statement I have ever heard! In any other country he would instantly become persona non grata!!! It's against UN goals, International law,common sense...
Truly believe we shall find way out, we can do it together - we must be as one!
(Miroslav, 13 April 2007 20:41)
Nick,
yeah right you suggest so many things but were is your evidence??? If you wanted to just blurt out any incredible comment please be honest to admit it!!! I suggest you provide us with the evidence and back them up - seeing as much of your comments are clearly delusional!!!
If the plan was not the dismembermebt and partition of Serbia then what is all this about independence for Kosovo & Metohija??? I guess the reason you suggest that there are few ethnic-Albanians in Serbia is because you clearly think wherever they are is not Serbia since in your words "with the exception of the Presevo valley who were always part of Kosovo and was unjustly left out of its borders."
- please provide any link you might have to this support this absurd suggestion!!!
On another point you say;
"We all know that the ICJ is a political body who is more interested in keeping stabilty and not setting precedents than delivering justice."
- I guess you would have been suggesting otherwise had the case proved otherwise. However I suggest you find some credible links to support your suggestion that any Genocide took place in Kosovo & Metohija bar the reality of the Albanians trying to completly erase any semblance of Serbian heritage and belonging to it's historic heartland!!! Since when did Genocide occur where the ethnic group in fact at each stage increased in number????
Moreover I am not the only one;
"implying that NATO’s intervention in Kosovo was aimed at partitioning Serbia then i think you are very wrong."
I would suggest (and all other proIndependence commentators as well as Joe, Daniel & Victor) to read Michael Parenti's book "To kill a nation"
[link]
Realise that not all Americans are so blind to what their Government did!!! Please be aware that I have read all sides of the arguments since it is the best way to discover flaws in alternative views so try not to limit yourself with one-sided books and articles - unless of course you wish to be shown as such!!!
(Princip, UK, 13 April 2007 22:32)
Ah yes, Joe: our resident "expert" on Vojvodina. I read the article and figured you'd be all over this one like
1. Have you ever been to Vojvodina? You'll find it's a far cry from Kosovo or any other place in the Balkans. Multiethnicity exists on levels you couldn't imagine, and if you only hear about news from the region when something involving skinhead attacks occur, you're missing 98% of the news. Otherwise, if you only hear about it from Hungarian nationalist websites or nationalist news sources - which seems to be the case (you do realize that nationalists can be people other than Serbs, right?) - you're getting a distorted image of the region. So unless you've been there, know people there, and have a good sense of the history there, your "opinions" are more fabricated ideas than fact.
2. What is it with your apparent obsession with Vojvodina and your incessant need to push some point that it's one of the worst places on Earth to live? You've indicated to me already you're an American, but have you any ethnic background from the region for you to be grinding this axe?
3. You talk about Serbian racism as if it's a national pastime in Belgrade. I should remind you that racism exists in our own country, the good ol' US of A, on a near daily basis. Anti-black, anti-hispanic, anti-Muslim, anti-Semitic. Would you conclude our country and society is racist? We've got our own batch of skinheads and KKKs. Remember that little episode in Oklahoma City in 1995? First we pinned it on Muslims, then we found it was done by some uber-Christian anti-government group. Would you call that racism? Isn't Gitmo a symbol of racism too? Or are you going to counter with "freedom" and "liberty" and all that good stuff against the war on terror? Because if not, you need to temper your comments about Vojvodina or any other place.
4. Provide me and anyone else you think could learn a thing or two by your apparent expertise, some facts and figures of the type of racism and demographic makeup you claim exists in Vojvodina. Provide me polling data of Serbs in the region that attitudinally feel the way you claim they feel against Hungarians, Slovaks, Ruthenians, etc. Show me your data to back up your assertions. If you're such an expert on the region, show us ignoramuses what you know. If not, you're just pissing and moaning.
(Mike, 13 April 2007 22:34)
To say that reading papers in English, French, German...etc. is not saying much about the credibility of the source. It is unhealthy for people to base their knowledge of a region solely on the interpretation of a situation that the media gives you, regardless of what language the news is being presented in.
There are about 9 major coorporations, and a handful of slightly less influential firms who control almost all of the global media (Viacom, Disney, Time Warner..etc)and these are referred to as the Global Media Giants. It is obvious they have an agenda to push, and news sources in many languages produce carbon copies of the same articles/news analysis, try google news searches on any topic and you will find many instances of the same article published under many different newspaper names or locations.
That being said, the global media does what the leaders of the new world order tell them; policies that are most suitable for globalist expansion. Serbia has continually been a thorn in their side, as this nation has time after time again resisted to the tallest of enemies, resisted the control of it's country by outside powers, and created a strong cultural and religious allegience of it's people. The current global policy by the elists is to simple divide and conquer from the outside, that is, by financial means.
This is what the interventions in the breakup of Yugoslavia were all about. Genocide and ethnic cleaning, please...This was labeled the first humanitarian war by the media and politicians who supported it, to provide a moral backdrop for justifying the bombing of a sovereign nation and killing of innocent civilians in the process (not to mention tons of depleted uranium dropped on Serbia by Nato, poisoning the population for centuries to come).
One only needs to look at Darfur to see a prime example of a humanitarian/genocidal catastrophy which dwarfs anything that happened in Kosovo, but which was largely ignored in terms of aide and intervention when compared. Darfur, and indeed much of Africa and other areas of the world, have experienced much worse but those regions did not fit into the globalist plan as they either were less strategic geographically or economically. To begin, it is well known that the West enticed republics in Yugoslavia to secede as a result of the demands that Yugo repay it's debts from the Tito era. This was an indirect fueling of the Yugoslav fire, and was due to the western idea of a divided balkans comprised of easily manipulated mini-states which would be more profitable. Serbia was the biggest obstacle in this global agenda, as it was one of the few who preferred a multi-ethnic and united large Yugoslavia which by 1990 had the fourth largest standing army in Europe. It was also socialist, not convenient for global cooperations seeking to expand their market. And finally, the complexity of balkan affairs over the past several hundred years allowed for a easily manipulated situation, and the enemy was targeted from the begining (the Serbs).
An objective and critical analysis of the actions of the US, NATO and the UN provide sufficient evidence that the wars in the former Yugoslavia were not about humanitarianism, as has often been suggested, but rather about pushing a modernized agenda for the balkans post-USSR and about toppling a Serb government which resisted the modern economic and political reforms pushed into the region. Just look at the Hague tribunal results, something like 90% of people tried are Serbs, meanwhile Serbs had the highest number of refugees, and lowest number of returnees of all nationalities in the former Yugoslavia, as well as the highest casualty rate.
It is ignorant to pretend the situation in Kosovo can only be judged by the actions during Milosevic's rule, as the history of the region is much longer than the time between 1989-1999. To ignore history is to be ignorant by choice, and that is precisely what every anti-Serb party has chosen to do. Indeed Germany has made general apoligies for it's actions in WW2 and everyone has forgiven obviously, given their global position today.
Why then is it so hard to forgive the Serbs for the incidents that occured during an eight year civil war, when others committed the same acts against them and were not held nearly as accountable. Also, the isolated cases of ethnic intolerance that were indirectly funded by Milosevic (Kosovo had under 10,000 casualties on BOTH sides) are nowhere near as horrific as the systematic, planned execution of 6 million Jews by Hitler's Germany. However, it seems that the latter is more easily forgivable based on the repeated arguments and one-sided policies of the international community which have been anti-Serb in every conflict stemming from the breakup of Yugoslavia, which itself was encouraged by the very same international powers which were suprised when they realized it could cause chaos.
(Mark, 14 April 2007 00:33)
Zobel said whether true or misconstrued his statements didn't reflect the position of the State of Germany or the European Union.
----So then what is Germany's ambassador to Serbia doing in his chosen and given position!
----Who is the man working for!
(S. Harris, 14 April 2007 02:35)
Oh Nick - those poor little Alabanians in Presevo! I suggest you take up arms and free them from bondage. Set my people free...I had a dream and in that dream all Albanians are created equal above all Serbs and Macedonians, Montenegrins...we will unite in one domain and call it Natural Albania...
(John, 14 April 2007 03:32)
Your comments are almost touching by their naivety.
Why am I reading about Vojvodina? Because I am interested about the fate of all oppressed or harassed people in the world, the Hungarians of Vojvodina are one of them. Recently too young Hungarians were badly beaten in the Banat, in Novi Sad and also in Subotica just because they were speaking Hungarian. This is in a country which tries to enter the democratic and tolerant EU.
About the US: giving me a lesson of history about those 3 states is really touching. I forgive you because many Europeans like to act like you. But let me give you some facts: Few days ago I just returned from a trip to California. I was again amazed to see the happiness of the Mexicans to be able to live in this country and their eagerness to become their proud citizens. Why?
Because of the uniqness of this democratic and mighty country, where people still can realize their dreams regardless of their ethnic origin, race or religion. Millions of people would like to come here just like those Mexicans. Ratko, if people live well in a given country, if they are not discriminated against, if they are not treated as second-class citizens they do not want to secede. This is something that some europeens politicians - to not name them - never understood.
(Joe, 14 April 2007 06:05)
Why should i possibly waste my time trying to hunt for links through the internet when i am apsolutely certain that whatever i post you will still be drunk with your nationalist propaganda and refuse to even consider the facts.
So the albanians in kosovo were killed by individuals were they? So there was no MUP, VJ, Arkans Tigers and others, there was no organized effort to expulse the albanians?
It would be utterly idiotic of me to try to provide you with anything more intelegent than general statements, as it is clear that you wont understand it.
I dont see how you can accept or even attemept at discussing anything that alaborates on the ethnic cleaning in Kosovo when you dont even accept that such ethic cleasing and genocide even ocurred.
Two of your presidents, Milosevic and Milutinovic went to the hague for crimes against humanity and you still THINK INDIVIDUALS KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN BOSNIA AND THOUSANDS IN KOSOVO.
If you cannot substantiate your comments with supporting evidence then they can only be regarded as rumour and hearsay.
The actual numbers for bosnia were 102,000 dead from all sides. [link]
In Kosovo the final numbers are not in yet but the general consensus is around 10,000 from all sides. [link]
Casualties in Kosovo were caused by VJ/MUP, NATO bombs, Mines and KLA. It was a conflict not a pogrom.
Nothing happened to yourself thank god because the VJ were there to shepherd you around the conflict zones and protected you with their Kalashnikovs while you slept.
Furthermore I am not drunk on nationalism and Milosevic and Milutinovic are not my presidents because I am British to the nth generation. Sorry, not a drop of Balkan blood in me anywhere.
(Jack, 14 April 2007 20:47)
“What I personally think he was trying to say was that same arguements of Serbia's for a right to Kosovo could be used for Hungary to claim Vojvodina.” (Daniel, Friday, 13 April, 2007, 11:41)
That doesn’t make any sense at all Daniel. Zobel said if Kosovo DIDN’T get independence then “problems in Vojvodina and Sandžak might flare up”. To me it sounds more like a threat then anything else simply because it doesn’t make any sense at the least on the surface. If Kosovo DOES get independence then those areas are MORE likely to be able to use Kosovo as a valid precedent to ask for independence, basically all you would need is repression against a minority and international intervention by the UN (How many countries are going to be willing to have the UN forces come in and intervene in internal matters now?). The only thing that could stop them is an International Community refusal to recognize them, which is what Germany could or could not do, like in Croatia for example against the wishes of the UN. Basically he’s saying they wouldn’t stop Vojvodina from declaring independence if Serbia is stubborn and doesn’t go along with the International Community. It is most definitely a threat.
“The very act of the sistematic expulsion of hundreds of thousands of K Albanians from Kosovo and the murder of tens of thousands is genocide according to the official definition” (Nick, Friday, 13 April, 2007, 19:51)
Nick, from the ICJ ruling…
“Neither the intent, as a matter of policy, to render an area “ethnically homogeneous”, nor the operations that may be carried out to implement such policy, can as such be designated as genocide. However, this does not mean that acts described as “ethnic cleansing” may never constitute genocide, if they are such as to be characterized as, for example, “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”, contrary to Article II, paragraph (c), of the Convention, provided such action is carried out with the necessary specific intent (dolus specialis), that is to say with a view to the destruction of the group, as distinct from its removal from the region.”
Basically they set a very high standard for when ethnic cleansing qualifies as genocide. Not only would you have to prove that the act was in order to physically destroy a significant “part” of the population, but you’d have to prove intent to do so. My understanding is also that roughly 10,000 at most were killed on both sides in the conflict, and that the ratio of Serb victims to Albanian victims was roughly 1 to 10 mirroring the population distribution. I really don’t see where you can go with that line of argument. If you think about it, what’s more dangerous for the average minority and what’s easier to control? Violence that occurs on the grassroots level of society, like the 2004 riots, or institutional violence like that perpetrated and controlled by a handful of individuals at the top like Milosevic? A lot of foreign diplomats seemed concerned there will be violence by the Albanian population again, but no one seems worried the Serbs will attack.
Nick I feel truly sorry for what you went through, and we Serbs need to do more to acknowledge what your people suffered, but I personally believe actions labeled as genocide need to meet the level of what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, or it losses its meaning and impact. Already the legal definition has a lower standard then the descriptive term Lemkin coined as a result of WWII, which is what most people are familiar with and think of when they hear the word Genocide. I don’t think any rational person can make the argument that Serbian policy towards Albanians is the same as that pursued by the Germans towards the Jews.
“While there were incidents betwen 1939 and 1945” (Nick, Friday, 13 April, 2007, 19:51)
My understanding is the Italians were so horrified by the actions of the Albanians in power towards the Serbs that they were forced to restrain them, much like they fought the Ustashe to protect Serbs and Jews. My understanding is the treatment was rather severe and on a comparable level to what you suffered under Milosevic, although I personally do not believe it raised to the level of the Ustashe crimes against Serbs. Is there a reason why one is referred to by you as an incident and another referred to as Genocide in your statements? I do acknowledge that crimes were committed against your people, and yes, I do believe your people should get real and significant compensation that is balanced to fit the crime. However, both sides really need to look at this objectively and logically and acknowledge the mistakes of the past in order that we can move forward. Its been a cycle of violence with retaliation for previous crimes always being used as some sort of stupid justification for new crimes. It has to stop. You messed us up pretty good after the NATO bombing and in 2004. Are we even yet? The ratio of victims does somewhat mirror the population distribution now.
Joe, I’m having a really hard time following your line of argument on the Vojvodina issue? Are you suggesting that there is institutionalized violence being committed against the Hungarian population by the Serbian government? Are you suggesting the Hungarian population is demanding independence? Personally, I’m all for dividing the Balkans by ethnicity, it would most certainly be a net gain for both Albanians and Serbs, why the hell are we fighting anyway? EU membership with voting districts that are evaluated every 10 years is the answer to the regions problems, not silly map writing games. Seriously, WTF is the EU doing?
(Matthew, 15 April 2007 08:03)