Lavrov: Abkhazia, S. Ossetia different from Kosovo
MOSCOW, NEW YORK -- Russia's FM says Moscow's decision to recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia has no parallel with Kosovo.
Source: Ria novosti, Tanjug
Close the entire text of the article here
"In both cases the center started a war in Kosovo and South Ossetia, as well as Abkhazia, but the conflicts were halted in different ways - through the ruthless inhuman bombardment of Belgrade in the case of Kosovo and without punishing Tbilisi for its attacks on Sukhumi [Abkhazia's capital]," Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Tuesday.
"A ceasefire was agreed, peacekeepers were deployed and mechanisms for talks established. Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
"Therefore, drawing parallels is irrelevant here, and the difference is evident between Belgrade's policy towards Kosovo and how Saakashvili's regime behaved towards South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Lavrov said.
In a statement from New York, Russia's Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin said that his country "is not planning to recognize Kosovo".
He also admitted that the Kosovo precedent had influenced Russia's decision to recognize independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Interfax news agency reports.
"When the issue of recognizing Kosovo's independence was first being considered and when the deadline for considering UN Envoy Ahtisaari's plan was ending, Russia warned that developments in the Caucasus could move in a similar direction, and that is what happened," Churkin said.
Russia's UN ambassador added that Georgia's attack on South Ossetia negated UN resolutions that Moscow supported that guaranteed the territorial integrity of Georgia, according to the AP.
Churkin said Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's action created a new reality that justifies Russia's decision to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
New:
> ...and leave their allies (Serbia) without their main argument.
Perhaps if you keep repeating this enough times, you'll convince yourself.
Serbia has not recognised either South Ossetia or Abkhazia & until & if they do so, their 'main argument' before the ICJ stands.
And Russia's actions have not hurt Serbia's prospects of bringing it's case before the ICJ. On the contrary, they have bolstered them by underlining the sheer idiocy of claiming that the 'Kosovo precedent' does not exist.
All of those little countries that people on both sides like to deride (including on one occasion myself) will be 'looking at themselves' & saying 'Uh oh'.
Right before the UN General Assembly meets.
(peter, sydney, 28 August 2008 15:26)
Two days ago, they said it is against international law to touch territorial integrity and over night they break that principle by violating the territorial integrity of another sovereign country (Georgia) and leave their allies (Serbia) without their main argument.
First they say Kosovo is not sui-jeneris, the next day they say it is just like Ahb & OS.
(New, 27 August 2008 16:54)
A nasty situation for us all.
(peter, sydney, 27 August 2008 07:40)
Yes, it was going into that direction since Feb. 2008 and now it's even "better". I wonder, why some people can't see it.
(Ataman (again in BG), 27 August 2008 12:10)
"A ceasefire was agreed, peacekeepers were deployed and mechanisms for talks established. Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
"Therefore, drawing parallels is irrelevant here, and the difference is evident between Belgrade's policy towards Kosovo and how Saakashvili's regime behaved towards South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Lavrov said.
My, my, Belgrade has "honored" every agreement made in Kosova? That is more stupid than ignorant. Belgrade did not intervine military ,not because the regime were so "honorable" or because the serbs are the "angles", but, because it was like an predator without teeth, the teeth of Belgrade regime were broken, and the west supporters of albanians just reapired their 100 yrs mistake, nothing more, while the history of the world chnaged the path , as we have one cold war looser ( read: Russia).
And yes for sure, the parallels are irrelevant, while YU was an federation with an constitution, and each federal unit, their own constitution,Kosova had one then and has one very new now, while Georgia is one contry. And you by doing so, killing innocent civilians in Georgia, just brought yourself bigger problems as you allready have.
(albano, 27 August 2008 10:43)
"The issue of South Ossetia and the independence recognition form Russians works well either way for the Albanians in Kosova. Really very nasty situation for Serbians :)
(Albi, 26 August 2008 23:24) "
Albi,
And how less nasty is this situation for the K-Albanians???? Will Pristina now support the rights of the S. Ossetians and Abkhazians to self-determination, which is the very same reason you used for your UDI????? But you realize of course that in doing this you will anger your masters in the US and EU. Come to think of it, it is really the K-Albanians who are in a catch 22 now!
(lowe, 27 August 2008 07:58)
Clear case of Serbs, Albos, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians tossed around and duped.
My opinion about saakashvili, putin, snake-pigeon, miloshevic, bush, clinton and the rest of the gang stays where it was.
(Ataman (again in BG), 27 August 2008 07:55)
Filip:
> What Russia is saying here is a big absurd.
No more absurd then some of your comments as you selectively pick & modify facts to distort the truth ;)
Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia?
Was not a republic. Only republics had the right of succession.
1,000,000 albanians thrown out?
Believe the actual figure was 850,000.. of all ethnicities - including 100,000 serbs. Of the albanians, over 500,000 returned after a period of 3 WEEKS, with most of the rest returning by the end of the war.
Of the serbs, roma & others, virtually none have returned. On the contrary, an additional 150,000 were displaced.. & it is now 9 years after the event.
11,000 murdered?
Try somewhere between 4 & 5 thousand.
18 years surpression (since 1981)?
Between 81 & 89, K-albanians were the ones suppressing the serb population, as indeed they were busy doing beforehand. Last period of serb retaliation started with autonomy being revoked in 1989.
> This was not the case with this two breakaway regions of Georgia. Kosova has a areal of almost 11ooo sqware kilometres and about 2.2 million citizens and S. Osetia around 65.000. So to compare this two regions with the Republic of Kosova is absurd and redicolous.
The actual numbers & comparisons are:
Kosovo:
Population of approx 2,100,000 of which 1,800,000 are albanian.
Area of 10,900 square kilometres.
Two provinces of Abkhazia & South Ossetia:
Population of 177,000 & 70,000 respectively. Combined - 247,000.
Area of 8,400 & 3,900 sq km's resp. Combined - 12,300 sq km's.
> Everybody knows that Russia is doing this etc.
Just as everybody knows that the US's real interests lie with AMBO & Bondsteel.
Albi:
The US decided it no longer had to play by the rules & now the russians have followed suit. The US opened the lid on Pandora's box with their support for the K-albanian UDI, & the russians have just yanked that lid wide open.
A nasty situation for serbs? Suggest you expand your horizons beyond your own immediate objectives & see the wider picture.
A nasty situation for us all.
(peter, sydney, 27 August 2008 07:40)
Louie - Who is this 'Igor Rant'? Did I miss the emergence of a new spokesperson?
I am waiting for the ICJ proposal this month. There will be many countries wishing to clarify the poor downtrodden international law for the sake of their own countries.
Plus it will offer a way out to both sides - the US and Russia - (whether they will take it is another matter).
If Kosovo's UDI is found to be counter to international law (which it clearly is) then recognitions of independence should be revoked or frozen, no doubt dressed up as some sort of review.
The issue of Kosovo should end up back at the negotiating table and a solution found which is acceptable to Serbia. If Pristina refuses to budge, then the US and Nato will just have to apply pressure. The only lasting solution will be a negotiated one.
Instead of recognising new independent states, the 'international community' would do better to recognise international legal frameworks.
I just hope to God that Georgia is not admitted into Nato, otherwise we could have a war which will directly affect all of our countries for decades to come. The international consequences would be terrible, and when I hear what Germany and the UK are saying about this situation it just shows how many lunatics have taken over the asylum.
(kate, 27 August 2008 07:16)
" only would like to say one word to Russian Government: Ignorant!!!
(louie, 27 August 2008 00:42) "
Hardly ignorant, louie. I call it beating the US and the EU at their own game.
What can the West do other than shriek and beat their breasts???? Nothing concrete actually ..... oops! maybe I am jumping the gun here!
Maybe the West can hire Ahtisaari again! He must be missing the limelight and feeling left out by now. Not to mention missing the huge financial rewards that the West must have given him.
Yes, why not! The West can hire him to conduct his fake negotiations all over again .... and come up with a package to make the ethnic Georgians "the world's most privileged minority" in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia! Then garnish this with a proviso that these 2 newly independent states cannot merge with Mother Russia. And solemnly declare that they will not serve as a precedent for future separatists elsewhere! Especially in Scotland, Wales, Corsica, the Basque region, Flemingia in Belgium, Quebec, the American Indians, etc etc ..... Should be an easy enough task for the so experienced Finn!
(lowe, 27 August 2008 05:21)
This really is classic, I'm dying of laughter. The Russians are saying their case is "unique" and challenging the West to claim they're similar. Very clever, win-win either way.
Russia takes the Gold in TongueTwisting, while the US comes in distant second with only a Silver Medal.
Its plainly obvious the end game goal is simply partition or merely to stall until the global political realities shift once again.
If the goal is partition, Serbia is certainly doing well at this stage in the game, and if the independence of parts of Kosovo and Georgia ends up being based on ethnicity, then Serbia is setting herself up for the next step, RS and possibly Krajina or parts of my homeland, Montenegro. This would also help Russia IMMENSELY.
Its clear to me that we do need to revise the map of the Balkans in a more fair manner that reflects the reality of the ground in this day and age. That would benefit Serbs and Albanians the most. Why do we not agree to work together for the common good?
If Serbs and Albanians agreed to recognize one another in their entirety in every country in which they live, the International Community might just be so ecstatic to put the issue away that they might go along with it.
One thing I'm wondering, will Russia recognize North Ossetia or let her join South Ossetia?
Regardless, the chances of all of Kosovo as it stands gaining true independence in all her regions is very slim.
I strongly recommend trading Presevo for concessions on Pec and Decani, like a Vatican Style agree with the Albanian government (Sorry Louie, you know its nothing personal).
Heck, give em to Montenegro in compensation for her losing a little land to Albania and Serbia, that would be cool, and would make for an excellent tourist destination under Montenegro's guidance. I'm sure it would result in a much higher standard of living for the people in the region and we do share clans after all. It wouldn't be such a bad idea, a compromise both Serbs and Albanians could live with.
(Matthew, 27 August 2008 04:28)
Filip wrote: "Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia and that is not the case with S.Osethia and Abhazia. In Kosova happened real ethnic cleansing where almost 1.000 000 albanians was thrown out and some 11000 was murdered, Almost 70 prosent of houses was nurnt by sebian paramilitary forces and serbian army."
first of all, Kosovo was never a federal unit of Yugoslavia, I am afraid but you must have read the wrong books my dear albanian friend.
as for the 11000 dead Albanians... how comes the UN estimates the number of victims at 3500 for all, serbian and albanian victims together?
last but not least, itīs not prosent, in english itīs percent.
(Jovan, 27 August 2008 02:03)
Filip, stop with the lies.
If so many Albanians were thrown out how come Kosovo is 90% populated by the Albanians and only 10% by the Serbs?
Who expelled whom?
For your information it was 200,000 Serbs who were expelled under the watchful eye of NATO.
Figures don't lie. Add it up. 90% Albanian, 10% Serbian population. Who was ethnically cleansed?
Kosovo was never part of Albania. Show me a map where it shows that it was.
You can try to fabricate as many figues as you can but you don't have a shread of evidence to support your argument.
(Peggy, 27 August 2008 01:11)
A key difference is that Abkhazia and Ossetian territories were founded, established and named after the Abkhazian and Ossetian people, not Georgians.
On the other hand, Kosovo was founded, established and named by Serbs, as were all the cities and towns. Kosovo is not an Albanian named place. Albanians have their own country Albania.
Serbs were the majority until the World Wars and the Albanians moved in well after Turkish occupation of the Balkans.
(ida, 26 August 2008 23:52)
The issue of South Ossetia and the independence recognition form Russians works well either way for the Albanians in Kosova. Really very nasty situation for Serbians :)
(Albi, 26 August 2008 23:24)
Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
--
Thank you for exposing the West and their dirty little tricks. Russia is doing the right thing by protecting those people seeking negotiated settlements through peaceful methods. After all, it was the Albanians who threatened violence if they didn't get their way, not the Serbians!
Russia is now moving from strength to strength while Western influence seems only to work on weak mini-states, islands and illegal puppet entities these days.
(ZK UK, 26 August 2008 23:16)
Russia not only has a agressive foreign policy but it has a brainwashed FM.
Once said that Kosovo is not a "unique case" now is saying that SO and Abhkazia is different from "non 'unique case'" so that make those "unique case"???!!!
(Indipendent, 26 August 2008 22:57)
What Russia is saying here is a big absurd. Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia and that is not the case with S.Osethia and Abhazia. In Kosova happened real ethnic cleansing where almost 1.000 000 albanians was thrown out and some 11000 was murdered, Almost 70 prosent of houses was nurnt by sebian paramilitary forces and serbian army. That after 18 years surpression (since 1981) by serbian authority. This was not the case with this two breakaway regions of Georgia. Kosova has a areal of almost 11ooo sqware kilometres and about 2.2 million citizens and S. Osetia around 65.000. So to compare this two regions with the Republic of Kosova is absurd and redicolous. Everybody knows that Russia is doing this to ocupy this two pieces of teritory of Georgia and then to take it to their federation because they dont like Georgia to become a NATO member and because of strategjic position of Georgia. Plus this has to do with this agriment of the USA to implement plans of Missils shield in Poland ond so on.
(Filip, 26 August 2008 22:09)
What Russia is saying here is a big absurd. Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia and that is not the case with S.Osethia and Abhazia. In Kosova happened real ethnic cleansing where almost 1.000 000 albanians was thrown out and some 11000 was murdered, Almost 70 prosent of houses was nurnt by sebian paramilitary forces and serbian army. That after 18 years surpression (since 1981) by serbian authority. This was not the case with this two breakaway regions of Georgia. Kosova has a areal of almost 11ooo sqware kilometres and about 2.2 million citizens and S. Osetia around 65.000. So to compare this two regions with the Republic of Kosova is absurd and redicolous. Everybody knows that Russia is doing this to ocupy this two pieces of teritory of Georgia and then to take it to their federation because they dont like Georgia to become a NATO member and because of strategjic position of Georgia. Plus this has to do with this agriment of the USA to implement plans of Missils shield in Poland ond so on.
(Filip, 26 August 2008 22:09)
A key difference is that Abkhazia and Ossetian territories were founded, established and named after the Abkhazian and Ossetian people, not Georgians.
On the other hand, Kosovo was founded, established and named by Serbs, as were all the cities and towns. Kosovo is not an Albanian named place. Albanians have their own country Albania.
Serbs were the majority until the World Wars and the Albanians moved in well after Turkish occupation of the Balkans.
(ida, 26 August 2008 23:52)
The issue of South Ossetia and the independence recognition form Russians works well either way for the Albanians in Kosova. Really very nasty situation for Serbians :)
(Albi, 26 August 2008 23:24)
Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
--
Thank you for exposing the West and their dirty little tricks. Russia is doing the right thing by protecting those people seeking negotiated settlements through peaceful methods. After all, it was the Albanians who threatened violence if they didn't get their way, not the Serbians!
Russia is now moving from strength to strength while Western influence seems only to work on weak mini-states, islands and illegal puppet entities these days.
(ZK UK, 26 August 2008 23:16)
Russia not only has a agressive foreign policy but it has a brainwashed FM.
Once said that Kosovo is not a "unique case" now is saying that SO and Abhkazia is different from "non 'unique case'" so that make those "unique case"???!!!
(Indipendent, 26 August 2008 22:57)
" only would like to say one word to Russian Government: Ignorant!!!
(louie, 27 August 2008 00:42) "
Hardly ignorant, louie. I call it beating the US and the EU at their own game.
What can the West do other than shriek and beat their breasts???? Nothing concrete actually ..... oops! maybe I am jumping the gun here!
Maybe the West can hire Ahtisaari again! He must be missing the limelight and feeling left out by now. Not to mention missing the huge financial rewards that the West must have given him.
Yes, why not! The West can hire him to conduct his fake negotiations all over again .... and come up with a package to make the ethnic Georgians "the world's most privileged minority" in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia! Then garnish this with a proviso that these 2 newly independent states cannot merge with Mother Russia. And solemnly declare that they will not serve as a precedent for future separatists elsewhere! Especially in Scotland, Wales, Corsica, the Basque region, Flemingia in Belgium, Quebec, the American Indians, etc etc ..... Should be an easy enough task for the so experienced Finn!
(lowe, 27 August 2008 05:21)
Filip, stop with the lies.
If so many Albanians were thrown out how come Kosovo is 90% populated by the Albanians and only 10% by the Serbs?
Who expelled whom?
For your information it was 200,000 Serbs who were expelled under the watchful eye of NATO.
Figures don't lie. Add it up. 90% Albanian, 10% Serbian population. Who was ethnically cleansed?
Kosovo was never part of Albania. Show me a map where it shows that it was.
You can try to fabricate as many figues as you can but you don't have a shread of evidence to support your argument.
(Peggy, 27 August 2008 01:11)
Two days ago, they said it is against international law to touch territorial integrity and over night they break that principle by violating the territorial integrity of another sovereign country (Georgia) and leave their allies (Serbia) without their main argument.
First they say Kosovo is not sui-jeneris, the next day they say it is just like Ahb & OS.
(New, 27 August 2008 16:54)
Filip wrote: "Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia and that is not the case with S.Osethia and Abhazia. In Kosova happened real ethnic cleansing where almost 1.000 000 albanians was thrown out and some 11000 was murdered, Almost 70 prosent of houses was nurnt by sebian paramilitary forces and serbian army."
first of all, Kosovo was never a federal unit of Yugoslavia, I am afraid but you must have read the wrong books my dear albanian friend.
as for the 11000 dead Albanians... how comes the UN estimates the number of victims at 3500 for all, serbian and albanian victims together?
last but not least, itīs not prosent, in english itīs percent.
(Jovan, 27 August 2008 02:03)
Filip:
> What Russia is saying here is a big absurd.
No more absurd then some of your comments as you selectively pick & modify facts to distort the truth ;)
Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia?
Was not a republic. Only republics had the right of succession.
1,000,000 albanians thrown out?
Believe the actual figure was 850,000.. of all ethnicities - including 100,000 serbs. Of the albanians, over 500,000 returned after a period of 3 WEEKS, with most of the rest returning by the end of the war.
Of the serbs, roma & others, virtually none have returned. On the contrary, an additional 150,000 were displaced.. & it is now 9 years after the event.
11,000 murdered?
Try somewhere between 4 & 5 thousand.
18 years surpression (since 1981)?
Between 81 & 89, K-albanians were the ones suppressing the serb population, as indeed they were busy doing beforehand. Last period of serb retaliation started with autonomy being revoked in 1989.
> This was not the case with this two breakaway regions of Georgia. Kosova has a areal of almost 11ooo sqware kilometres and about 2.2 million citizens and S. Osetia around 65.000. So to compare this two regions with the Republic of Kosova is absurd and redicolous.
The actual numbers & comparisons are:
Kosovo:
Population of approx 2,100,000 of which 1,800,000 are albanian.
Area of 10,900 square kilometres.
Two provinces of Abkhazia & South Ossetia:
Population of 177,000 & 70,000 respectively. Combined - 247,000.
Area of 8,400 & 3,900 sq km's resp. Combined - 12,300 sq km's.
> Everybody knows that Russia is doing this etc.
Just as everybody knows that the US's real interests lie with AMBO & Bondsteel.
Albi:
The US decided it no longer had to play by the rules & now the russians have followed suit. The US opened the lid on Pandora's box with their support for the K-albanian UDI, & the russians have just yanked that lid wide open.
A nasty situation for serbs? Suggest you expand your horizons beyond your own immediate objectives & see the wider picture.
A nasty situation for us all.
(peter, sydney, 27 August 2008 07:40)
"A ceasefire was agreed, peacekeepers were deployed and mechanisms for talks established. Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
"Therefore, drawing parallels is irrelevant here, and the difference is evident between Belgrade's policy towards Kosovo and how Saakashvili's regime behaved towards South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Lavrov said.
My, my, Belgrade has "honored" every agreement made in Kosova? That is more stupid than ignorant. Belgrade did not intervine military ,not because the regime were so "honorable" or because the serbs are the "angles", but, because it was like an predator without teeth, the teeth of Belgrade regime were broken, and the west supporters of albanians just reapired their 100 yrs mistake, nothing more, while the history of the world chnaged the path , as we have one cold war looser ( read: Russia).
And yes for sure, the parallels are irrelevant, while YU was an federation with an constitution, and each federal unit, their own constitution,Kosova had one then and has one very new now, while Georgia is one contry. And you by doing so, killing innocent civilians in Georgia, just brought yourself bigger problems as you allready have.
(albano, 27 August 2008 10:43)
"The issue of South Ossetia and the independence recognition form Russians works well either way for the Albanians in Kosova. Really very nasty situation for Serbians :)
(Albi, 26 August 2008 23:24) "
Albi,
And how less nasty is this situation for the K-Albanians???? Will Pristina now support the rights of the S. Ossetians and Abkhazians to self-determination, which is the very same reason you used for your UDI????? But you realize of course that in doing this you will anger your masters in the US and EU. Come to think of it, it is really the K-Albanians who are in a catch 22 now!
(lowe, 27 August 2008 07:58)
Clear case of Serbs, Albos, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians tossed around and duped.
My opinion about saakashvili, putin, snake-pigeon, miloshevic, bush, clinton and the rest of the gang stays where it was.
(Ataman (again in BG), 27 August 2008 07:55)
This really is classic, I'm dying of laughter. The Russians are saying their case is "unique" and challenging the West to claim they're similar. Very clever, win-win either way.
Russia takes the Gold in TongueTwisting, while the US comes in distant second with only a Silver Medal.
Its plainly obvious the end game goal is simply partition or merely to stall until the global political realities shift once again.
If the goal is partition, Serbia is certainly doing well at this stage in the game, and if the independence of parts of Kosovo and Georgia ends up being based on ethnicity, then Serbia is setting herself up for the next step, RS and possibly Krajina or parts of my homeland, Montenegro. This would also help Russia IMMENSELY.
Its clear to me that we do need to revise the map of the Balkans in a more fair manner that reflects the reality of the ground in this day and age. That would benefit Serbs and Albanians the most. Why do we not agree to work together for the common good?
If Serbs and Albanians agreed to recognize one another in their entirety in every country in which they live, the International Community might just be so ecstatic to put the issue away that they might go along with it.
One thing I'm wondering, will Russia recognize North Ossetia or let her join South Ossetia?
Regardless, the chances of all of Kosovo as it stands gaining true independence in all her regions is very slim.
I strongly recommend trading Presevo for concessions on Pec and Decani, like a Vatican Style agree with the Albanian government (Sorry Louie, you know its nothing personal).
Heck, give em to Montenegro in compensation for her losing a little land to Albania and Serbia, that would be cool, and would make for an excellent tourist destination under Montenegro's guidance. I'm sure it would result in a much higher standard of living for the people in the region and we do share clans after all. It wouldn't be such a bad idea, a compromise both Serbs and Albanians could live with.
(Matthew, 27 August 2008 04:28)
Louie - Who is this 'Igor Rant'? Did I miss the emergence of a new spokesperson?
I am waiting for the ICJ proposal this month. There will be many countries wishing to clarify the poor downtrodden international law for the sake of their own countries.
Plus it will offer a way out to both sides - the US and Russia - (whether they will take it is another matter).
If Kosovo's UDI is found to be counter to international law (which it clearly is) then recognitions of independence should be revoked or frozen, no doubt dressed up as some sort of review.
The issue of Kosovo should end up back at the negotiating table and a solution found which is acceptable to Serbia. If Pristina refuses to budge, then the US and Nato will just have to apply pressure. The only lasting solution will be a negotiated one.
Instead of recognising new independent states, the 'international community' would do better to recognise international legal frameworks.
I just hope to God that Georgia is not admitted into Nato, otherwise we could have a war which will directly affect all of our countries for decades to come. The international consequences would be terrible, and when I hear what Germany and the UK are saying about this situation it just shows how many lunatics have taken over the asylum.
(kate, 27 August 2008 07:16)
A nasty situation for us all.
(peter, sydney, 27 August 2008 07:40)
Yes, it was going into that direction since Feb. 2008 and now it's even "better". I wonder, why some people can't see it.
(Ataman (again in BG), 27 August 2008 12:10)
New:
> ...and leave their allies (Serbia) without their main argument.
Perhaps if you keep repeating this enough times, you'll convince yourself.
Serbia has not recognised either South Ossetia or Abkhazia & until & if they do so, their 'main argument' before the ICJ stands.
And Russia's actions have not hurt Serbia's prospects of bringing it's case before the ICJ. On the contrary, they have bolstered them by underlining the sheer idiocy of claiming that the 'Kosovo precedent' does not exist.
All of those little countries that people on both sides like to deride (including on one occasion myself) will be 'looking at themselves' & saying 'Uh oh'.
Right before the UN General Assembly meets.
(peter, sydney, 28 August 2008 15:26)
A key difference is that Abkhazia and Ossetian territories were founded, established and named after the Abkhazian and Ossetian people, not Georgians.
On the other hand, Kosovo was founded, established and named by Serbs, as were all the cities and towns. Kosovo is not an Albanian named place. Albanians have their own country Albania.
Serbs were the majority until the World Wars and the Albanians moved in well after Turkish occupation of the Balkans.
(ida, 26 August 2008 23:52)
Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
--
Thank you for exposing the West and their dirty little tricks. Russia is doing the right thing by protecting those people seeking negotiated settlements through peaceful methods. After all, it was the Albanians who threatened violence if they didn't get their way, not the Serbians!
Russia is now moving from strength to strength while Western influence seems only to work on weak mini-states, islands and illegal puppet entities these days.
(ZK UK, 26 August 2008 23:16)
"The issue of South Ossetia and the independence recognition form Russians works well either way for the Albanians in Kosova. Really very nasty situation for Serbians :)
(Albi, 26 August 2008 23:24) "
Albi,
And how less nasty is this situation for the K-Albanians???? Will Pristina now support the rights of the S. Ossetians and Abkhazians to self-determination, which is the very same reason you used for your UDI????? But you realize of course that in doing this you will anger your masters in the US and EU. Come to think of it, it is really the K-Albanians who are in a catch 22 now!
(lowe, 27 August 2008 07:58)
Filip, stop with the lies.
If so many Albanians were thrown out how come Kosovo is 90% populated by the Albanians and only 10% by the Serbs?
Who expelled whom?
For your information it was 200,000 Serbs who were expelled under the watchful eye of NATO.
Figures don't lie. Add it up. 90% Albanian, 10% Serbian population. Who was ethnically cleansed?
Kosovo was never part of Albania. Show me a map where it shows that it was.
You can try to fabricate as many figues as you can but you don't have a shread of evidence to support your argument.
(Peggy, 27 August 2008 01:11)
Filip:
> What Russia is saying here is a big absurd.
No more absurd then some of your comments as you selectively pick & modify facts to distort the truth ;)
Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia?
Was not a republic. Only republics had the right of succession.
1,000,000 albanians thrown out?
Believe the actual figure was 850,000.. of all ethnicities - including 100,000 serbs. Of the albanians, over 500,000 returned after a period of 3 WEEKS, with most of the rest returning by the end of the war.
Of the serbs, roma & others, virtually none have returned. On the contrary, an additional 150,000 were displaced.. & it is now 9 years after the event.
11,000 murdered?
Try somewhere between 4 & 5 thousand.
18 years surpression (since 1981)?
Between 81 & 89, K-albanians were the ones suppressing the serb population, as indeed they were busy doing beforehand. Last period of serb retaliation started with autonomy being revoked in 1989.
> This was not the case with this two breakaway regions of Georgia. Kosova has a areal of almost 11ooo sqware kilometres and about 2.2 million citizens and S. Osetia around 65.000. So to compare this two regions with the Republic of Kosova is absurd and redicolous.
The actual numbers & comparisons are:
Kosovo:
Population of approx 2,100,000 of which 1,800,000 are albanian.
Area of 10,900 square kilometres.
Two provinces of Abkhazia & South Ossetia:
Population of 177,000 & 70,000 respectively. Combined - 247,000.
Area of 8,400 & 3,900 sq km's resp. Combined - 12,300 sq km's.
> Everybody knows that Russia is doing this etc.
Just as everybody knows that the US's real interests lie with AMBO & Bondsteel.
Albi:
The US decided it no longer had to play by the rules & now the russians have followed suit. The US opened the lid on Pandora's box with their support for the K-albanian UDI, & the russians have just yanked that lid wide open.
A nasty situation for serbs? Suggest you expand your horizons beyond your own immediate objectives & see the wider picture.
A nasty situation for us all.
(peter, sydney, 27 August 2008 07:40)
Louie - Who is this 'Igor Rant'? Did I miss the emergence of a new spokesperson?
I am waiting for the ICJ proposal this month. There will be many countries wishing to clarify the poor downtrodden international law for the sake of their own countries.
Plus it will offer a way out to both sides - the US and Russia - (whether they will take it is another matter).
If Kosovo's UDI is found to be counter to international law (which it clearly is) then recognitions of independence should be revoked or frozen, no doubt dressed up as some sort of review.
The issue of Kosovo should end up back at the negotiating table and a solution found which is acceptable to Serbia. If Pristina refuses to budge, then the US and Nato will just have to apply pressure. The only lasting solution will be a negotiated one.
Instead of recognising new independent states, the 'international community' would do better to recognise international legal frameworks.
I just hope to God that Georgia is not admitted into Nato, otherwise we could have a war which will directly affect all of our countries for decades to come. The international consequences would be terrible, and when I hear what Germany and the UK are saying about this situation it just shows how many lunatics have taken over the asylum.
(kate, 27 August 2008 07:16)
A nasty situation for us all.
(peter, sydney, 27 August 2008 07:40)
Yes, it was going into that direction since Feb. 2008 and now it's even "better". I wonder, why some people can't see it.
(Ataman (again in BG), 27 August 2008 12:10)
What Russia is saying here is a big absurd. Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia and that is not the case with S.Osethia and Abhazia. In Kosova happened real ethnic cleansing where almost 1.000 000 albanians was thrown out and some 11000 was murdered, Almost 70 prosent of houses was nurnt by sebian paramilitary forces and serbian army. That after 18 years surpression (since 1981) by serbian authority. This was not the case with this two breakaway regions of Georgia. Kosova has a areal of almost 11ooo sqware kilometres and about 2.2 million citizens and S. Osetia around 65.000. So to compare this two regions with the Republic of Kosova is absurd and redicolous. Everybody knows that Russia is doing this to ocupy this two pieces of teritory of Georgia and then to take it to their federation because they dont like Georgia to become a NATO member and because of strategjic position of Georgia. Plus this has to do with this agriment of the USA to implement plans of Missils shield in Poland ond so on.
(Filip, 26 August 2008 22:09)
This really is classic, I'm dying of laughter. The Russians are saying their case is "unique" and challenging the West to claim they're similar. Very clever, win-win either way.
Russia takes the Gold in TongueTwisting, while the US comes in distant second with only a Silver Medal.
Its plainly obvious the end game goal is simply partition or merely to stall until the global political realities shift once again.
If the goal is partition, Serbia is certainly doing well at this stage in the game, and if the independence of parts of Kosovo and Georgia ends up being based on ethnicity, then Serbia is setting herself up for the next step, RS and possibly Krajina or parts of my homeland, Montenegro. This would also help Russia IMMENSELY.
Its clear to me that we do need to revise the map of the Balkans in a more fair manner that reflects the reality of the ground in this day and age. That would benefit Serbs and Albanians the most. Why do we not agree to work together for the common good?
If Serbs and Albanians agreed to recognize one another in their entirety in every country in which they live, the International Community might just be so ecstatic to put the issue away that they might go along with it.
One thing I'm wondering, will Russia recognize North Ossetia or let her join South Ossetia?
Regardless, the chances of all of Kosovo as it stands gaining true independence in all her regions is very slim.
I strongly recommend trading Presevo for concessions on Pec and Decani, like a Vatican Style agree with the Albanian government (Sorry Louie, you know its nothing personal).
Heck, give em to Montenegro in compensation for her losing a little land to Albania and Serbia, that would be cool, and would make for an excellent tourist destination under Montenegro's guidance. I'm sure it would result in a much higher standard of living for the people in the region and we do share clans after all. It wouldn't be such a bad idea, a compromise both Serbs and Albanians could live with.
(Matthew, 27 August 2008 04:28)
Filip wrote: "Kosova was a federal unit of Yugoslavia and that is not the case with S.Osethia and Abhazia. In Kosova happened real ethnic cleansing where almost 1.000 000 albanians was thrown out and some 11000 was murdered, Almost 70 prosent of houses was nurnt by sebian paramilitary forces and serbian army."
first of all, Kosovo was never a federal unit of Yugoslavia, I am afraid but you must have read the wrong books my dear albanian friend.
as for the 11000 dead Albanians... how comes the UN estimates the number of victims at 3500 for all, serbian and albanian victims together?
last but not least, itīs not prosent, in english itīs percent.
(Jovan, 27 August 2008 02:03)
" only would like to say one word to Russian Government: Ignorant!!!
(louie, 27 August 2008 00:42) "
Hardly ignorant, louie. I call it beating the US and the EU at their own game.
What can the West do other than shriek and beat their breasts???? Nothing concrete actually ..... oops! maybe I am jumping the gun here!
Maybe the West can hire Ahtisaari again! He must be missing the limelight and feeling left out by now. Not to mention missing the huge financial rewards that the West must have given him.
Yes, why not! The West can hire him to conduct his fake negotiations all over again .... and come up with a package to make the ethnic Georgians "the world's most privileged minority" in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia! Then garnish this with a proviso that these 2 newly independent states cannot merge with Mother Russia. And solemnly declare that they will not serve as a precedent for future separatists elsewhere! Especially in Scotland, Wales, Corsica, the Basque region, Flemingia in Belgium, Quebec, the American Indians, etc etc ..... Should be an easy enough task for the so experienced Finn!
(lowe, 27 August 2008 05:21)
The issue of South Ossetia and the independence recognition form Russians works well either way for the Albanians in Kosova. Really very nasty situation for Serbians :)
(Albi, 26 August 2008 23:24)
Clear case of Serbs, Albos, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians tossed around and duped.
My opinion about saakashvili, putin, snake-pigeon, miloshevic, bush, clinton and the rest of the gang stays where it was.
(Ataman (again in BG), 27 August 2008 07:55)
New:
> ...and leave their allies (Serbia) without their main argument.
Perhaps if you keep repeating this enough times, you'll convince yourself.
Serbia has not recognised either South Ossetia or Abkhazia & until & if they do so, their 'main argument' before the ICJ stands.
And Russia's actions have not hurt Serbia's prospects of bringing it's case before the ICJ. On the contrary, they have bolstered them by underlining the sheer idiocy of claiming that the 'Kosovo precedent' does not exist.
All of those little countries that people on both sides like to deride (including on one occasion myself) will be 'looking at themselves' & saying 'Uh oh'.
Right before the UN General Assembly meets.
(peter, sydney, 28 August 2008 15:26)
Russia not only has a agressive foreign policy but it has a brainwashed FM.
Once said that Kosovo is not a "unique case" now is saying that SO and Abhkazia is different from "non 'unique case'" so that make those "unique case"???!!!
(Indipendent, 26 August 2008 22:57)
"A ceasefire was agreed, peacekeepers were deployed and mechanisms for talks established. Belgrade has never tried to use military force or cast doubt on negotiations since 1999, but they were destroyed by Kosovo Albanians supported by the West. And it was Tbilisi that undermined the settlement mechanisms in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," the minister said.
"Therefore, drawing parallels is irrelevant here, and the difference is evident between Belgrade's policy towards Kosovo and how Saakashvili's regime behaved towards South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Lavrov said.
My, my, Belgrade has "honored" every agreement made in Kosova? That is more stupid than ignorant. Belgrade did not intervine military ,not because the regime were so "honorable" or because the serbs are the "angles", but, because it was like an predator without teeth, the teeth of Belgrade regime were broken, and the west supporters of albanians just reapired their 100 yrs mistake, nothing more, while the history of the world chnaged the path , as we have one cold war looser ( read: Russia).
And yes for sure, the parallels are irrelevant, while YU was an federation with an constitution, and each federal unit, their own constitution,Kosova had one then and has one very new now, while Georgia is one contry. And you by doing so, killing innocent civilians in Georgia, just brought yourself bigger problems as you allready have.
(albano, 27 August 2008 10:43)
Two days ago, they said it is against international law to touch territorial integrity and over night they break that principle by violating the territorial integrity of another sovereign country (Georgia) and leave their allies (Serbia) without their main argument.
First they say Kosovo is not sui-jeneris, the next day they say it is just like Ahb & OS.
(New, 27 August 2008 16:54)